New rifle, first deer (long story)

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Re: New rifle, first deer (long story)

Postby MrRowdy » Thu Jan 12, 2012 9:44 am

My range is a semi-private one with a max 100 yard bench but I just move back into the pasture and shoot prone in the grass. 200 yards is fine. It's not so much the distance at the range but knowing how to range properly and adjust you shooting for the given distance. Knowing you dope (bullet drop) for given distances and knowing what adjustments to make will prepare you and give you confidence to take those longer shots. A dope chart is an easy thing to make and carry in the field. On mine it shows the bullet drop in inches for every 50 yards out to 350 yards, it shows how many elevation clicks I need to adjust at each distance and it shows how many Mils a deer will show at each distance so i can range it properly. Not having a mil-dot scope makes it almost impossible to range your target properly unless you have an electronic range finder. My dope chart is about 2"x1" and covered in clear packing tape so it holds up better. Ideally a guy would want to "shoot his dope" to verify a ballistics chart but some of the charts out are so spot on that you can simply zero at whatever distance you like then follow the info on the ballistics chart and feel pretty confident that you'll get a clean hit.
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Re: New rifle, first deer (long story)

Postby Jim in Houston » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:23 pm

I have been thinking about making a bullet drop chart, but after looking over several ballistic calculators for the 450 Bushmaster Hornady .452 FTX 250 gr, I came up with the following suite of graphs. I have no idea which is correct, but information on this board (and Mr. R's experience at 300 yds) lead me to believe the drop is not as bad as the graph may indicate. The pink or orange lines may be the best. Note - horizontal divisions are 50 yards and vertical are 50 inches, so the drop at 300 yds is -26.9 inches or -41.2 inches, respectively for these two lines.
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Bushmaster 450 Ballistics Chart.jpg
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Re: New rifle, first deer (long story)

Postby MrRowdy » Thu Jan 12, 2012 2:52 pm

For the life of me I can't figure out how to make the attachment larger. I used the info off of www.biggameinfo.com and it seemed to be spot on.
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Re: New rifle, first deer (long story)

Postby Jim in Houston » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:09 pm

Unfortunately, I don't think I can post a bigger one, since there is a limit on the size of files that can be uploaded. However, the red line (the one below the pink line) is from the calculator to which you linked. I set it up for the 450 with the factory .452 FTX 250 gr bullet with a muzzle velocity of 2,000 and a zero at 100 yards. At 300 yards, the drop is -41.8 inches with those parameters. I suspect the differences relate to the assumptions you made on the parameters and the different zero.

The only point I was making with the chart, was that you can get a lot of different results with the same assumptions, depending on the calculator. Many of the results would seem to exagerate the amount of drop based on your experience. Since the Big Game Info calculator proved accurate in your case (that would be Mr. R), I am going to go with it.
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Re: New rifle, first deer (long story)

Postby wildcatter » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:08 am

MrRowdy wrote:My range is a semi-private one with a max 100 yard bench but I just move back into the pasture and shoot prone in the grass. 200 yards is fine. It's not so much the distance at the range but knowing how to range properly and adjust you shooting for the given distance. Knowing you dope (bullet drop) for given distances and knowing what adjustments to make will prepare you and give you confidence to take those longer shots. A dope chart is an easy thing to make and carry in the field. On mine it shows the bullet drop in inches for every 50 yards out to 350 yards, it shows how many elevation clicks I need to adjust at each distance and it shows how many Mils a deer will show at each distance so i can range it properly. Not having a mil-dot scope makes it almost impossible to range your target properly unless you have an electronic range finder. My dope chart is about 2"x1" and covered in clear packing tape so it holds up better. Ideally a guy would want to "shoot his dope" to verify a ballistics chart but some of the charts out are so spot on that you can simply zero at whatever distance you like then follow the info on the ballistics chart and feel pretty confident that you'll get a clean hit.


A BIG 10-4 ON THIS POST!!!

I keep saying, knowing the range and being able to adjust the sights or have a ranging scope and you're Good-To-Go!

If you consider, our factory ammo is still Supersonic at 440yds and it still has, well more than 2.68 times the Killing Power, as measured by Taylor, than a 223/SS109 ammo has at the MUZZLE!! Do you think you can kill an elk with SS109 ammo, which has a soft steel core, with the barrel pressed against the animal? If you do, then just imagine, you have 2.68 times that power at 440yds, your only problem is for you, to decide how to take advantage of that knowledge. Now imagine, at instead of 2200fps FTX bullets you hand loaded some to 2500fps, as many here have done so and even faster. At 2500fps, you are still supersonic at 510 yds and 2.81 times better Knock-Down than the SS109. As further proof that this is all possible, try this. I shot two crows this summer, on two different days, on my 200yd range one at about 100yds the other at about 200yds. Big deal right? I was using a Nikon OMEGA ( http://www.natchezss.com/product.cfm?co ... APG%20Camo ), which is on sale for 100 bucks. I went to Nikon's internet hunting sight and down loaded the "SPOT ON" Program and found out that it would be easy to accurately range to 400 plus yards. Again big deal a 100 yard crow kill and a 200 yard kill, until you know that I was using a 10 for a Dollar used semi-auto rifle in 22 LONG RIFLE!!!. A Junk-Amatic Rifle, shooting Junk-Amatic ammunition!!

Who shoots a 22 at 100yds, very few. Now who shoots a 22 at 200yds, besides no-body. What MrRowdy and I are trying to say is, if you do your home work and get out from under your paradigm, you will find a new world out there, with this cartridge/weapon combo, this is NOT just a sub-200yd weapon. Next years contest should show the way..

..t
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Re: New rifle, first deer (long story)

Postby kottke_35 » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:33 am

I'm looking forward to this years contest. My bushy is going to be my go to rifle this year with my 338 winny as my back up.

Mr. Rowdy, could you send me a PM? Would like to discuss some long range/mil dot information.

B.
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Re: New rifle, first deer (long story)

Postby MrRowdy » Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:01 am

Wildcatter and I are right on the same page. You can do amazing things with being able to range properly and adjust. Think about shooting a Taliban at a mile and a half, that's the extreme of what's capable.

One VERY important thing to consider is what the effective killing range of the weapon in use is in order to make a clean, humane kill. Sure, it would be impressive to make a hit at 600 yards but wounding an animal is less than respectable.

Also, your personal marksmanship is the other limiting factor. Can you consistently drop the round where it is intended? If not it's time to go back to the fundamentals of marksmanship before you start taking those long shots, again for the sake of a clean, humane kill shot. This is not war gentleman, hunting is about putting down your game as quickly and cleanly as possible.
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Re: New rifle, first deer (long story)

Postby Jeepejeep » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:50 pm

Agreed! Personally I doubt if I would take a shot at a big game animal much past 200 yards regardless of caliber. The ranges around here are 200 yards at best and I know how I can shoot in hunting type positions at that range. Much beyond that, I'd have to doubt myself. The gun is probably way more accurate than I can shoot it. There are many guys who are capable way beyond that range on a consistent basis and to them I say go for it, congratulations and best of luck to ya!
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."Col. Jeff Cooper
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Re: New rifle, first deer (long story)

Postby 9x19MdM » Fri Jan 13, 2012 4:37 pm

MrRowdy wrote:Wildcatter and I are right on the same page. You can do amazing things with being able to range properly and adjust. Think about shooting a Taliban at a mile and a half, that's the extreme of what's capable.



Just couldn't resist a little thread jack!

Image
US Army sniper Sergeant Stephen McElroy (L), Charlie Company, 2/27 Infantry, 25th Infantry Division and Staff Sergeant Matthew Okonsky search the nearby ridgelines for Taliban fighters during an attack at Observation Post Mace, near Gowerdesh in northern Kunar, on Thanksgiving, 24 November 2011. (John D McHugh) JOHN D MCHUGH

Stephen is a 2nd cousin to my wife. He's on his 3rd tour and is currently based in Afghanistan.
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Re: New rifle, first deer (long story)

Postby MrRowdy » Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:31 pm

As much as I'd love to give credit for the longest confirmed kill to an American using a .50 BMG it was a British sniper using a .338 Lapua, but I really can't discriminate when a dead Taliban is concerned. Whats really amazing is what these cats will do with what I consider a medium power scope. It's just stupid how good they are. Like the Michael Jordan or Bruce Lee of rifle marksmanship. We can only dream of being so gifted.

What's really great about today's sniper is that they are equipped with the tools to make hits at extremely long distances keeping them out of harm's way, at least from normal infantry and artillery. It also gives them more opportunity for a clear follow up shot because they are so damn far away if they miss, the enemy may not even know they've been shot at.

And no worries about the thread jack, my deer killing thread turned into anything but. And thank Stephen next time you see him.
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