250GRN XPB TERMINAL PERFORMANCE 1300LB B&C BROWN BEAR

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Re: 250GRN XPB TERMINAL PERFORMANCE 1300LB B&C BROWN BEAR

Postby wildcatter » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:48 am

alaskabushmaster wrote:Funny story, my first large black bear was taken in virginia with a savage 10ML magnum. This is a smokeless powder muzzle loader with horrific killing potential if you are smart. I loaded it with h110 and 250grn poly tipped projectile. Its been so long I don't remember the maker of the bullet. Thats not important though. The bullet was moving at about 2400fps and it sucked a lung almost intact out of that bear and it was hanging by a thread on the hide on the far side. It was odd for sure but it never crossed my mind till now what happened.



Funny!

Your representation of the two bullets, are very good, with the example of the Hollow-Point, being spot-on. Being, you get a large initial, wound channel, which would be more than enough for the 250xpb to kill deer size animals, that only have about 18", side to side (lung shot), but, not nearly enough, Terminal Safety Margins, if the animal is dangerous (Moose, Elk, Bears - Think Moose are so laid-back, that they could never pose a Dangerous Situation, think again, Chechahco!) and has four foot (4') of tissue, to travel through.

What you need, is a "Well Constructed" bullet, that is guaranteed to scramble the innards, with enough energy to travel Threw-and-Threw the animal, doing so with great gusto, dumping tons of energy out the back-side of the animal (which assures that the innards received, Over-the-Top, energy), and to top it off, with enough Heel-Vacuum, to suck the scrambled mess, well out of and in a pronounced pattern, behind the Target in question!! We have never had this capability, until now, enter the 450 Bushmaster Reloads!!

..t

PS... Momma Moose run more folks, up trees (see below), than Bears, by far! When a Moose attacks a Man, usually after they are done stomping, there is only tattered clothing left and NO recognizable tissue..t

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODgwgaLTnh8
Safety First..t
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Re: 250GRN XPB TERMINAL PERFORMANCE 1300LB B&C BROWN BEAR

Postby 1fullmag » Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:51 pm

Do you really think I would benifit from a fmj or the barns buster over a 225 or 250gr ftx for black bear? I had actually been thinking about using some 230gr hornady round nose to try on black bear this fall(cause I got a bunch) but after seeing how they expand in water im not sure they would penatrate any better. even the barns buster I would worry about starting to expand at the higher than .454 vellocity they would be seeing, has anybody done any testing with them?
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Re: 250GRN XPB TERMINAL PERFORMANCE 1300LB B&C BROWN BEAR

Postby commander faschisto » Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:28 pm

I haven't plugged anything with 'em yet, but I'm quite sure that expansion is NOT a concern with Barnes Busters...just look at a cross-section picture of one!
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Re: 250GRN XPB TERMINAL PERFORMANCE 1300LB B&C BROWN BEAR

Postby 1fullmag » Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:51 pm

Has anyone done a water test with the buster's yet?
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Re: 250GRN XPB TERMINAL PERFORMANCE 1300LB B&C BROWN BEAR

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:22 pm

Just to make a small point, on my water shot, that was a Mag Tech 230 Grain FMJ round nose using ONLY 38 grains of LilGun, with a standard taper crimp. I would speculate they were running right at about 2400FPS or a bit less. I know you guys want to see what my recent loads will do on a water shot so just bear with me a bit longer. I am about two weeks away from completion of my range and I have some plans on the board for a new water jug stand. Stay tuned.
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Re: 250GRN XPB TERMINAL PERFORMANCE 1300LB B&C BROWN BEAR

Postby 1fullmag » Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:49 pm

Sheep you may have to load us some experimental rounds and come with me to minnasota for testing.
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Re: 250GRN XPB TERMINAL PERFORMANCE 1300LB B&C BROWN BEAR

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:01 pm

Would love to if I had the time and $$$. As long as I could TP Hoots house while we are up there...
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Re: 250GRN XPB TERMINAL PERFORMANCE 1300LB B&C BROWN BEAR

Postby kottke_35 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:52 pm

1fullmag wrote:Do you really think I would benifit from a fmj or the barns buster over a 225 or 250gr ftx for black bear? I had actually been thinking about using some 230gr hornady round nose to try on black bear this fall(cause I got a bunch) but after seeing how they expand in water im not sure they would penatrate any better. even the barns buster I would worry about starting to expand at the higher than .454 vellocity they would be seeing, has anybody done any testing with them?


Alright, lets face it. Black bear are not that difficult to kill. The bear that AK shot here in this post is six times the bear that any black bear that any of us are likely going to encounter is going to be. Many black bear are killed with a 30-30 every year, and those hunters do not feel under-gunned with America’s favorite deer caliber. Now we have guides that say not to bring anything less than a 375 HH, the golden standard for an African rifle to hunt the big browns of the north, these are a whole nother animal.

In regards to the bullet selection for black bear; take a look at factory loaded ammunition from Federal for example, black bear is considered a CXP-2 game animal, the same as deer. Your FTX bullet should do fine on black bear. However there may be better choices.

The FMJ bullets that people have been playing with may not be legal to hunt with in your area. They are not legal for use while hunting here in Colorado because they are considered non-expanding. As others have demonstrated here, they will expand when fired into multiple water jugs, however, some say that they may not expand when fired into tissue. I cannot speak to the Barnes Busters but the videos on YouTube speak to the killing power of these bullets (although a relatively small sample).

http://youtu.be/heupLxoj1t0

http://youtu.be/51w1sz62eso

One thing is for certain, if you can use FMJ or the Barnes Buster bullets in your hunting area legally, you will not have to worry about penetration, and likely not have to worry about damaging the hide as much.

Just a suggestion, but why not try the Barnes XPB pistol bullets? There are several grains to choose from, 200 gr and 275 having pointed tips, and the 225 and 250 having a large hollow point. Many including myself have experimented with them in this caliber and are very happy with them. I have a load right now for the 275 XPB that shoots almost as accurate as the factory loading out of my 16” at 100 yards. Hoot is getting very good accuracy with his loading and I believe he hunts deer with his 200 grain load. With these bullets you get penetration and expansion with a lower risk of bullet fragments contaminating your meat if you hit the shoulder or other meaty area. And I don’t know any area where an all copper expanding bullet is not legal to hunt with.

Since killing power and bullets has been brought up in this thread, I’m just going to throw something out. Who can argue with a large bullet moving at relatively moderate velocity? Our Bison herd was almost wiped out due to the 45-70 govt cartridge. But I also see Roy Weatherby’s point of pushing a smaller well constructed bullet at blistering velocity (257 Weatherby magnum was successfully used to kill a cape buffalo just to prove it could be done, although obviously not recommended!). So, I’m from the school of not knocking anybodies point of view when it comes to the conversation of lighter faster, bigger slower…fact is they both work!

Sorry, I’m bored at work.

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Re: 250GRN XPB TERMINAL PERFORMANCE 1300LB B&C BROWN BEAR

Postby 1fullmag » Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:31 am

I agree black bears are not that tough to kill but, when hunting in thick cover near swamps the bang flop is nice to have. I also believe that you need to match your expansion and penatration with what game animal your shooting, it seems to me that using a bullet that will penatrate 10ft of animal and exit would be leaving a lot of energy on the table that could have been deposited inside a animal that is only 2-1/2 foot wide but, giving the fact that the bullet is starting out at 45 cal. it still is gonna be pretty devistating even with no expansion.
I will probably end up using either the 225gr or 250gr ftx for this fall cause I already have loads worked up for them with lil gun and w296 that shoot well. if I end up having time work up some loads for the buster or the pbj I would not hesitate to try them. Your allowed 2 bear so that would be two diffrent bullets I could try, and some of my friends that are retired stay up there for 3-4 weeks so im also gonna try and get them to use the bm after I tag out or have to leave so I can gather even more knowledge on how theese bullets perform.
Heck if we all kill a couple bears we may end up with half as much meat as akbushmaster!
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Re: 250GRN XPB TERMINAL PERFORMANCE 1300LB B&C BROWN BEAR

Postby wildcatter » Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:10 pm

1fullmag wrote:Do you really think I would benifit from a fmj or the barns buster over a 225 or 250gr ftx for black bear? I had actually been thinking about using some 230gr hornady round nose to try on black bear this fall(cause I got a bunch) but after seeing how they expand in water im not sure they would penatrate any better. even the barns buster I would worry about starting to expand at the higher than .454 vellocity they would be seeing, has anybody done any testing with them?



kottke_35, has already brought up some fine points.

WRT, the fmj's and legalities. Some states make the use of fmj's illegal. However, that was in an effort to stopping the use of 30cal fmj's, they had no idea we were coming and are thus, way behind the curve. FMJ's in our caliber has a larger diameter, sitting still, than any 30cal gets, after expansion and we WAY out penetrate and out Kill, by far, any 30cal magnum.

Take a page from the Punch Bullet Concept (http://www.beltmountain.com/punch.htm). If your state is one of those states, behind the killing efficiency curve, we have a solution. The punch-bullet guys drill a small-shallow hole, just enough to allow a #12 piece of shot to enter that hole, thus having exposed lead, and qualifies as an expansion bullet, in an otherwise, Solid Bullet.

WRT the Barnes Bullets, they will work like a FMJ, only allot better. First of all, I designed that bullet for Barnes.

I had for years cajoled, the various bullet manufactures, to make me a bullet to my standards, Barnes did it.

The standard bullet uses a jacket that is often .008-.010" thick, with soft lead innards. The magnum bullets, will have a slightly thinker jacket (say .012" +-) and a 3% antimony lead core, making the core slightly harder than pure lead.

My design was/is, for a non-expanding, large Meplat, heavy jacket, and "Hard-Lead" Core, 325-350gr bullet. Barnes built for me and thus you, a Hard Lead Bullet, surrounded with a .060" jacket (if memory serves correctly, because I seem to remember .045", but either one is great!), in a 325gr bullet. IMHO, the best of all worlds, and certainly up to the task of easily killing anything on the Planet, if moved fast enough and we have the speed to bleed!!

..t
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