A Very Unsatisfactory Elk Hunt

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Re: A Very Unsatisfactory Elk Hunt

Postby Al in Mi » Wed Nov 19, 2014 5:35 pm

Jim, look at the Barnes TEZ ML bullets as a option. This is the bullet I hope to use in my bolt gun project.

The 250gr version is 1.090 long, so about .150 longer than a 250gr FTX. Not sure what's left in the case for room with the powder your using, but just a idea.

another option is the 250gr Bonded Shockwave ML bullets, same profile as the FTX so in theory should fly the same.

I'm Barnes or bonded anal when it comes to hunting big game, sure they will cost a good bit more but still the cheapest part of your hunt.
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Re: A Very Unsatisfactory Elk Hunt

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:22 am

The saddest part of this story is that we will never really know what the factory round did and did not do. Thanks to some land owners who either have been badly burned by hunters in the past or by landowners who followed up and found the animal and kept it for themselves. Or a combination of both scenarios. But that's a different crusade. What we need to realize is the factory 250FTX has a successful history of whomping whitetails HARD with some significant instances of over deployment and jacket shedding. That tells me one thing. The bullet may not be constructed quite the way we want it to be for Elk and game of that size when there's been a lot of investment in the hunt. I am starting to think that maybe the 275 coppers and 300 grain designs may need to be tested for game larger than mule deer. Now, if you can deliver a 200-250 grain copper on elk and get the wound channel needed, they would be fine too.
There's a lot to be considered about "energy delivery timing" when it comes to our larger game animals.
The factory Hornady round has TKO out the wazoo, but it may distribute that energy pulse much earlier and faster on large game. This may be intentional as designed by the engineers at Hornady or it may be that Hornady engineers may need to adjust the design of the 250 Grain FTX to delay it's energy/expansion pulse by creating a different jacket design or lead hardness so that the bullet penetrates deeper into large bodied animals before expanding. Or maybe as hand loaders, WE need to take responsibility for developing our own hog/elk/moose/grizzly rounds and keep the 250FTX for whitetail and small hogs.
Let the range tests begin!
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Re: A Very Unsatisfactory Elk Hunt

Postby Jim in Houston » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:57 pm

One more data point is the "'Hornady Index of Terminal Standards' [HITS] calculator designed to help hunters choose effective bullet/cartridge combinations for any hunting situation in the world. Traditional muzzle energy figures do not take into account for the manner in which energy is transferred from the bullet to game animals. HITS factors in Bullet Weight, Sectional Density, Ballistics Coefficient, and Impact Velocity and delivers a rating that will fall into one of the four classifications - small, medium, large, and dangerous game. The H.I.T.S. rating on Hornady ammunition is based on: 100 yard impact velocities for rifles, muzzleloaders, and shotguns. . . ." The HITS value for the 450 Bushmaster 250 gr FTX is 833, which puts it upper part of the medium game (500 to 900) index such as deer, antelope, black bear, and caribou, or game weighing 50 to 300 pounds. By this measure, the FTX is not a good choice for elk. http://www.hornady.com/hits/calculator
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Re: A Very Unsatisfactory Elk Hunt

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:57 pm

I rest my case...
That's what I've been saying all along. The bullet is not going to have enough fight left in it after the initial impact and energy dump to do the deeper damage required on large thick skinned game at ranges beyond 200 yards unless the jacket design is beefed up and the bullet itself bonded to the jacket.
I'm telling ya guys, Copper solids will probably be the better investment for the higher value big game animals.
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Re: A Very Unsatisfactory Elk Hunt

Postby wildcatter » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:06 am

Texas Sheepdawg wrote:I rest my case...
That's what I've been saying all along. The bullet is not going to have enough fight left in it after the initial impact and energy dump to do the deeper damage required on large thick skinned game at ranges beyond 200 yards unless the jacket design is beefed up and the bullet itself bonded to the jacket.
I'm telling ya guys, Copper solids will probably be the better investment for the higher value big game animals.



or

325gr Barnes Buster

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Re: A Very Unsatisfactory Elk Hunt

Postby wildcatter » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:09 am

Or

as Ive described before...

Shot Placement-Bullet selection,
Shot Placement-Bullet selection,
Shot Placement-Bullet selection,
Shot Placement-Bullet selection,
Shot Placement-Bullet selection,
Shot Placement-Bullet selection,
Shot Placement-Bullet selection,
Shot Placement-Bullet selection..

..t
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Re: A Very Unsatisfactory Elk Hunt

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:29 am

wildcatter wrote:
Texas Sheepdawg wrote:I rest my case...
That's what I've been saying all along. The bullet is not going to have enough fight left in it after the initial impact and energy dump to do the deeper damage required on large thick skinned game at ranges beyond 200 yards unless the jacket design is beefed up and the bullet itself bonded to the jacket.
I'm telling ya guys, Copper solids will probably be the better investment for the higher value big game animals.



or

325gr Barnes Buster

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Absolutely, Tim.
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Re: A Very Unsatisfactory Elk Hunt

Postby Jim in Houston » Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:54 am

But can you push a 325 gr bullet out of a BM450 fast enough to be effective. Seems to me I remember a post about how you could fire a bowling ball, if you could get enough behind it to make it go.
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Re: A Very Unsatisfactory Elk Hunt

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:20 am

Tim. I think it's time you dug up that post about that youth hog hunt.
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Re: A Very Unsatisfactory Elk Hunt

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:31 am

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