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Texas Sheepdawg wrote:Nevermind, I'll handle it.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1634&p=9966&hilit=Barnes+Buster#p9966

A recurring question - at what range were these impressive kills made?

Only WC could answer that question.

Jim in Houston wrote:But can you push a 325 gr bullet out of a BM450 fast enough to be effective. Seems to me I remember a post about how you could fire a bowling ball, if you could get enough behind it to make it go.

A Very Great Notion and "Worthy" of Stern Consideration.

As a Rule-of-Thumb and I'm not sure and can be proven wrong, here. But I think you're pretty much done with our case at about 400gr +-. After 400gr, one starts to go into "Diminished Returns" certainly at 325gr the Power-Curve is still going up. Buuttt!! There is more to consider than pure Power, for Power's Sake! Keep in mind, that I designed the Barns-Buster Line of Bullets, for Barnes. What I wanted, at the time, was 325gr Flat-Point made with Hard Lead and in a Thickly-Clad Jacket (+- .050") FMJ-FP style. I didn't want ANY expansion I wanted the Flat-Point to do all of the work, with plenty of penetration and Devastating Terminal Results. So, Barnes did it for me and the Jacket was Not .007"-.012" thick as is normal. Everybody in the Industry, for the most part, uses a relatively soft lead core, with the jackets as I described. Heck, even the Magnum bullets (.338-.375-.458, etc) have only 3% Antimony, making the core only somewhat harder for deeper penetration, when using those bullets for Dangerous Game. For my purposes I wanted a 20+ Brinell or better, core, or what might be described as a "VERY HARD" core with an impossible to expand jacket (again, +- .050"). At The Time I thought the sweet-spot might be about 325grs. OF COURSE this does not take into consideration, "Costs"! The Barnes Busters can be quite expensive, but as somebody here has said..."Still the cheapest part of any hunt"!

But since, those days, I've down-sized some 400gr-.458 Barnes-Busters, to our .452 Standard. and could still see the Power-Curve going up! A subjective observation, true, but one in which I think is absolutely true!

Buuttt, considering the 400's, are falling like a Proverbial-Rock after 250yds the 325's might just be the over-all better choice, and for my money, this day, I will stay with the 325's for extended ranges and Big-Tough animals.

Having said all this, the results (from other Shooters) of the Factory 250's fill my note books with accounts of Bang Flops, on Elk, out over 250 yds. So, we have allot of lee-Way in bullet selection, but we can't prove this to Jimbo here. And personally, I have a tough time getting past The-Dawgs, 230gr FMJ-FP's. They are proven Super-Killers and who can beat their price point?? Imagine a not-so-tough 230gr Barnes Buster, and that's the Texas-Sheep-Dawgs Poison, move them at 2500FPS++ and what-do-you-have-now?? And Cheap too!!!

Who would argue that a relatively pure lead 230-RN at 900FPS (45ACP speeds & a 1911) wouldn't just pole-ax an elk at 10 feet? By my Calculations with Professionally Improved Custom Loads (Not your loads! And don't try these ((lots of reasons besides SAFETY)) or I'll send the Dawg to your refrigerator), will have the same energy at 575yds, using the 450b and the same bullet, get it??

Don't get me wrong there are hundreds of correct choices, pick one for your mission and then hit them, "Properly"!! Get one, well into the boiler-room and a pleasant result will follow..

..t

Wildcatter,
Only issue with Dawg's 230gr fmj flatpoints is that they would be illegal for the original poster to use on big game in Colorado. We have to have a so-called soft-point bullet to meet our game regs. I've shot a full 250 rnd box of the flat-nose fmj bullets as handloads, and I must say I've been impressed with them. They will blow an unbelievable hole through a fresh railroad tie at 200 yrds. I've done it numerous times. Leaves a nice hole about 1 1/4" as it comes out the back side. Now, if I could only figure out how to accurately drill a small hole into the flat-points and insert a 7 1/2 lead shot without screwing up the accuracy, we'd have something we could use on elk out to that magic 300 yrd mark.

In the meantime, don't let anyone kid you, the 450BM with 250gr FTX's will take down an elk with authority. My son and I have each done it several times. (none over 150 - 175 yrds and about 550 - 675 lbs field dressed.)
Until we can solve the bullet issue, then, yes, there are better calibers to take on an elk hunt where longer shots are likely, but there isn't anything better than a 450BM AR to take on an elk hunt in the heavy timber where they like to hide! As an ex-bowhunter, I prefer to do the latter. Nothing's more exciting than getting in there "where you can smell 'em before you can shoot 'em"!