by wildcatter » Mon Jun 13, 2011 7:26 pm
Amateurs Talk about Strategy, Dilettantes Talk about Tactics, and Professionals Talk about Logistics.
This is a famous quote, well known in some circles.
Allot has been discussed on this topic of “Taste Great-Less Filling” discussion of Optics for the 450 Bushmaster and 400yard shots on elk.
First let me say at the on-set, no scope at all, is really needed, for such a shot. Yup, we shoot 5.56AR’s and 7.62 NATO M14’s at 1000yds, with iron sights and keeping them all in the black, as an everyday happenstance at the Camp Perry Nationals. Just keeping them in the Black, won’t win any trophies, as accuracy with irons is totally phenomenal. Scopes however, can give a tremendous edge. To this end, with the eye on 400yd Elk kills, using the 450 Bushmaster is the focus of this little dissertation, which cannot handle all the variables, but will touch on the big ones.
Let’s first set aside some old and corrupted thinking. I say corrupted, because we tend to think we cannot do something or other, just because, Old Joe over there, couldn’t do it and we all know how experienced he is, right. So, if he couldn’t do it, then neither can you or anybody else. Worst yet, this thinking gets pasted from one to another, until, an Urban Legend, becomes fact. I wish to discuss some thoughts I have read here.
Because the less experienced, on the other channels, have said the wolfcom goodies are only 200yd killers (on the outside-never to exceed 200yd either), we as mere men tend to echo such, when the truth couldn’t be further away. As an aside, I’ll remind you, our very own BD1 has shown us great groups at 300yds (BD, I seem to remember that those were 3moa, right?? Translate that to 400yds and you’ve got a 12” group or twice as small as the 24”moa of an Elk or 16” with 4 moa and I haven’t ever seen 4 moa at any range, using a 450b) and I’ll bet he’ll soon chime in and confirm to us all, that shooting the 450b at that range was but a walk in the Park too. But I digress.
We need to see the intended target, then we need the skill-set, to adjust our scopes to be able to hit it. After striking the animal, one might wonder if he brought along enough Gun. To that end, I will say right now, there is over-kill at 400yds, using the 450b on Elk (assuming good loads/bullets/known ranges, etc., etc.).
Adjusting the scope assumes much, but a good laser is indeed very valuable, but then what to do when you do know the range. Knowing the Range, for the typical shooter, only means he knew at what range he missed the intended target. Proper scope adjustments would better be handled in other thread. But with the proper sight-in Bug-Ah-Boo of an 80 inch drop can be reduced to less than 30 inches, if a 300yd zero is actually obtained, with a bullet rise of no more than 10.32” @ 175yds, well within a Minute of ELK. No Hold-Over at all needs to be employed out to 300yds. After that, if a laser is pressed into service, great hits are easy at 400yds, assuming the shooter is up to his part. Past 300yds? Well, no need to hold-over either, if you’re will to adjust the scope settings.
Here are the ¼ MOA clicks for the ranges past 300, out to 400yds..
300 +0
325 +6
350 +13
375 +20
400 +28
BOOYA!!!
I for one am not afraid to adjust my scope in the field. Zero to a 300yd Point-Blanc sight in range, with a center-mass hold, means “Meat”, when a center mass hold is employed. After 300yd, you normally have enough time, to adjust the scope.
Of course I’m making this sound all too easy, but in reality, you can do this too. The only other question (as if there would only be just one left, yeah right), is can I kill an Elk at 400yds.
400yd shots on even Chipmunks are usually unethical, to say nothing of Elk, for most shooters, but not for me and maybe not for some others here. The average Deer killed in Michigan is under say 35yds, with most hunters saying ...“you can’t even see deer at 100yds!”. I’ll bet you’ve heard similar tales and different ranges, which is the real reason why any range past 100yds is unethical, for some.
Wounding an animal with an irresponsible shot is indeed Unethical. However, I have shown that 400yd SUB 24” (the kill area of an Adult Elk) groups are more than doable, but so what, you say, if you only wound it, what are the ethics’ NOW? You’d be right to question such, but I’m about to put things into another prospective.
…“So, there I was, up on the Klondike, when a 600lb Caribou at 600yds, stepped out”.. Ok, but I did kill it, and that shot was the shot responsibly considered, by me, before I made it? First let’s digress to my title of this ditty and consider Logistics.
I have read things in this thread, which echoes other things, which do not correlate into the real world, let me explain.
The matter of Bullet Energy and the supposed rule of 1000, right? Here’s where Wound Ballistics Professionals come in, leaving the theorist behind, for the most part we do not use ft/lb energy numbers. The reason why, without getting overly technical, is they rarely reflect how well a particular animal dies. For instance, we can use a 45cal 230gr FMJ (or any other proper expansion bullet for the intended deed) with an ft/lb of 3586 and a 30cal FMJ (keeping apples to apple the best we can, or again using a heads-up expansion bullet) at the same ft/lb numbers and who would argue that the 30cal would kill better, not anyone in my circles.
I quit using a 300wby-mag at these energy figures, killing deer on an open 40 acres, at ranges to 500yds, when I couldn’t hardly kill the deer after 250yds with the wby, and this with great shot placement, but my 45 Winchester Magnum/M1-Carbine, was just slamming them to the ground. Do I have to tell you guys how well we did this last hunting season, with the 450b, I think not? All this points up to what the Professionals use instead of ft/lb energy, we universally use what is called the Taylor-Knock-Out Formula (look it up) and even this is not very prefect, but is a much better predictor of Wound Ballistics' results, though imperfect, as I just said.
Here are some of the numbers, comparing two cartridges you know all too well.
One of the most used cartridges on elk continues to be the 308 Winchester, sporting a flat based 165gr bullet. The Factory Elk loadings are for a 165 grainer is at speeds of 2600-2700fps, depending on the Manufacturer. 180’s are not a great idea, as at ranges of 400yds, they just won’t expand and using a 308, you’re going to need all the help you can get from an expanded bullet, assuming the bullet tracks straight through the animal, after expansion. We’ll use the 165gr bullet at the factory loading of 2650fps, to split their differences. And we’re going to compare the 308/165gr to a 450b, using a 230gr fmj-fp also at 2650fps, which velocity can be achieved, if your reloading capabilities are up to it, if not, then do not try achieving such speeds, because this is dangerous, even for most experienced reloaders, to say nothing for the new guys, rolling their own ammunition.
What we want to know is an Elk Kill possible at 400 yds using the above 450b load? Nobody, with a lick of sense, is going to argue, that an Elk kill, is possible/probable at 200yds and less, but what about further ranges? If we can show that elk, could possibly be in grave danger at 400yds, then the argument about optics stays in the optics area of this forum and how best to kill, at extended ranges, goes into that subject area, to be further explored as only we can do, on a site like this.
In our 308 example we see real world Taylor-Knock-Out (Hence fourth known here as TKO) of 19.2 TKO units, at the muzzle and again, that number is well more than enough to take out an Elk, sanding at the muzzle. Whereas the 450b, has the same TKO units at 314yds, or said differently, the 450b kills as well as the 308 does at the muzzle, when the 450b is at 314yds. Also, the 308 has a TKO of 16.4, at 169 yds, whereas the 450b has the same TKO units at 400yds. Would anyone argue that the 308 factory 165gr loading wouldn’t more than sufficiently take out an Elk at 169yds? No? Well then, why is there any argument about the 450b at 400yds and its kill-ability while using it?
Now, you can also factor in a couple of other things, like the FMJ-Flat-Points, give a 30% plus edge to the 450b, which when that particular percentage increase is added in for the 450b, it now kills better than the 308 does at the muzzle, when the 450b is at 400yds. In Real-World Studies, these results are more than readily seen and verified.
Keep in mind that the 308’s sighted here are 24” barreled weapons, compared to the 20” barrel of the 450b, further giving our bushy an advantage, if apples to apples barrel lengths are viewed in comparison.
What does all this mean, well, several things or more? One, the Rule of 1000 just doesn’t apply to much in the real world and for nothing, when comparing energy numbers to the 450b. Also, there is well more than enough available Kill-Power to kill Elk at 400yds, when employing our 450b example.
This dissertation only vaguely touches on all of the things we’ll need to kill Elk at 400yds, especially wind, but if you’ve got a laser and the loads and the experience, can read the wind and adjust for it, then golly, just move the sight knobs, shoot the gun and get your knife out, the 450 Bushmaster will do the rest..
..t
Safety First..t
