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AbramzTnk wrote:Sounds like trigger control. We had the "Experts" come and give the PMI (Preliminary Marksmanship Instruction) before our last range and lots of thing the Army teaches has changed. NOW you're encouraged to use the mag and mag-well as support, and it is left upto the shooter as to how much finger...upto the 3rd section/joint...to place on the trigger when firing. As for me, I shoot both pistol and rifle with the smallest portion of the tip of the finger on the trigger. You may want to consider in investing (about 25 bucks online) in the Magpul MIAD (Mission Adaptable) grip which allows 3 different backstraps and two different finger-side inserts to customize the grip to your hand. A larger diameter grip may just fix it. If all else fails, use Kentucky windage and adjust your POA.

Tank

The MIAD would be handy on my AR's but not my bolt gun. As for trigger finger, I go with what the Navy taught me....just behind the fingernail. But I'm open to new ideas. If more trigger finger is now the accepted method, I'll give it a shot.

bushmeister wrote:Could you be flinching, or anticipating the recoil? To troubleshoot, maybe have someone else shoot it and determine whether it's the gun/scope or the shooter, then you know which to work on. I know if I don't run through my mental checklist before every shot, I'll flinch, and it goes to the left when I do... unless I'm in the lead sled.

I'm not going to rule out flinching, but it's hard for me to think that's it. I've been shooting for a long, long time. A rifle going off isn't anything shocking or scary to me. Also, aside from the .450, neither my .308 or my Bushy Predator (.223) are heavy recoiling rifles. If I was shooting a .300WM then sure, flinching is definitely on the table. Hard to see flinching with .223 or .308. Possible though....might mix in some blanks in my mag and see if I am. Thanks guys for all your help!!

Taco,

Do you ever notice any shadowing in the right side of your scope? This will cause your groups to print left of the desired poa/poi. Usually occurs with higher magnification scopes.

b.

Stop adjusting your scope and just shoot five rounds. Pause repeat on new target. Your groups should be in same spot. Don't worry about where on target just work on your groups. It sounds to me like it's your barrels wandering with heat up or you affecting POA. Also tight groups at high mag. Can be very hard to do. Stick to 4 power at 50yards and shoot 5 5 shot groups. You should be able to figure out if its you or the gun or the scope.

I've been sitting back, but something to consider is cant. When I'm working up loads using a 24x scope (aim small, miss small), I have a bubble level mounted on my upper and I check it every shot. That's a minor inconvenience to assure the quality of my load experiment to be as much an expression of the load as possible and the least of an expression of my delivery. I could use my Dad's Lead Sled, but that would detract from the fun of shooting too much. If you know someone with a Lead Sled, consider borrowing it to ascertain that the varying POI is not the result of something you're unconsciously doing. If it's erratic in a Lead Sled, its time to consider a different scope or moving it to one of less recoil. One last point to make. When I'm sighting in a scope at shorter ranges to get it on paper, the adjustments sometimes do not effect the POI in a predictable way. I almost forgot. When I'm frustrated at groups I am getting and decide to utilize a death grip on the rifle with both hands. I almost invariably see lateral stringing and virtually no vertical stringing.

Just adding my ingredients to this "Stone Soup" of opinions.

Hoot

My corrective lenses with no-line bifocals cause a "shift" on the reticle.

9x19MdM wrote:My corrective lenses with no-line bifocals cause a "shift" on the reticle.

Yep -- that happened to me too. Went with lined bifocals the next time.

AbramzTnk wrote:Sounds like trigger control. We had the "Experts" come and give the PMI (Preliminary Marksmanship Instruction) before our last range and lots of thing the Army teaches has changed. NOW you're encouraged to use the mag and mag-well as support, and it is left upto the shooter as to how much finger...upto the 3rd section/joint...to place on the trigger when firing. As for me, I shoot both pistol and rifle with the smallest portion of the tip of the finger on the trigger. You may want to consider in investing (about 25 bucks online) in the Magpul MIAD (Mission Adaptable) grip which allows 3 different backstraps and two different finger-side inserts to customize the grip to your hand. A larger diameter grip may just fix it. If all else fails, use Kentucky windage and adjust your POA.

Tank

It's funny that the teaching of the tip of the fore-finger was only for the M1 Garand but somehow migrated to the M14 and to the M16 even though they require a lot less trigger pull. What really blew my mind is how they teach reflexive fire to newer shooters now. No gear on..no kevlar, live rounds and people walking independently up and down their lanes while odds/ even lanes are still firing.