Mag and feeding problems

Talk about the AR15 style rifles chambered in 450 Bushmaster.

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Re: Mag and feeding problems

Postby Oscar12 » Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:57 am

Id like to get a couple of the Bartz mags but I'm having a hard time finding someone that will ship. Emailed several stores and either they said they don't carry them or don't ship. Any ideas?
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Re: Mag and feeding problems

Postby commander faschisto » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:52 pm

Use the contact form on the Bartz website:

http://bartzman.com/contact-us/
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Re: Mag and feeding problems

Postby Al in Mi » Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:01 am

try Not Just Guns in Mason, 517-244-9001
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Re: Mag and feeding problems

Postby SGWINK » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:12 am

Guys and Gal's Hello! Also being New and reading the entire thread - I have something a bit different as an issue but must contain some of the suggestions fixes of some type to solve my issues.

To the point - my issue is ejection jamming on occasion AND the last round will not keep the bolt carrier open.

* I can manually pull the carrier back with the magazine in and it locks no issue
* Last shot from either magazine does not keep the carrier bolt locked open
* I am getting ejector shell jams as well

AM NOT a Smith not technically savvy enough to understand major lingo but its not exactly rocket science either.

I read a lot of easy "first look at this" fixes are a result of just opening the port a tad to help send them flying.
** I have (2) 5 round ASC 450BM Mags. I only load 4 and rack one in - so the springs aren't being taxed out with pressure. And I lube them well..

Under gas issues typically are the fix to the Carrier not locking open on last round. Some fixes are springs trials and adjustable buffers. I have done almost a full line of trials with buffers and last option as an option is the more expensive adjustable buffer tubes.. I have also had it milled out for gas increase and am told it cant be milled any further. So gas is up to more than most I am told.

My personal tech and myself are at wits end. As suggestions come I can probably answer whether it has been trialed. I read too that milling the length of the butt stock tube to allow just a slight add to length helps prevent and max out of the carrier length not quite going back far enough. BUT - like I say - I can manually pull the bolt carrier back and get it to lock without any issue.

Bring it PLEASE - too much into this stick to let it carry on with issues.... know what I'm saying?

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Re: Mag and feeding problems

Postby Hoot » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:47 am

Did Trident ship it with a magazine and did that one work OK? In your picture thread, you show what appears to be composite mags. How did they do? Approximately how many round do you have through the rig? IE is it broken in? If not, running it wet can help until the surfaces are work polished. Do the ASC mags come with a single stack follower or a conventional 5.56 follower? That last question is more to the jamming issue than no BHO.

Divide and conquer. If you're somewhere where its not a big deal to let a shot go or like me 10 minutes from the local range, here's something to try WRT no BHO on the last shot. Chamber a round and remove the magazine. Assuming you shoot right handed, take your left thumb and apply pressure on the BHO latch where it sticks out of the lower. Maintaining firm pressure on the latch, let one go. Don't worry, I've done this to TS people's rigs. You're trying to create the BHO action normally provided by the presence of a magazine, but without it. What you're trying to accomplish is differentiating inadequate gas versus magazine drag on the BC not allowing it to go back far enough to catch the latch. Feel the latch out with a magazine in and out. You'll get a sense for what the thumb has to do. Repeat a few shots to disqualify a random event.
If it stay open, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the mags are the problem. If it won't latch, you have to consider the issue being as I mentioned, lack of ease of cycling but more likely, you're right on the edge of adequate gas flow. I'm assuming you already checked the gas block registration, looking for the soot ring to indicate that it is located so that it doesn't obstruct a portion of the gas port in the barrel. Suddenly, I'm getting a deja vu feeling, like I recently discussed this. :roll:
Get the issue of gas supply out of the way before proceeding to magazine tuning and report back.

I sometimes overlook the obvious questions like, Does the BHO work when the action and BC have been recently cleaned, only to get spotty once it gets dirty?

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Re: Mag and feeding problems

Postby SGWINK » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:02 pm

Hoot wrote:Did Trident ship it with a magazine and did that one work OK? In your picture thread, you show what appears to be composite mags. How did they do? Approximately how many round do you have through the rig? IE is it broken in? If not, running it wet can help until the surfaces are work polished. Do the ASC mags come with a single stack follower or a conventional 5.56 follower? That last question is more to the jamming issue than no BHO.

Divide and conquer. If you're somewhere where its not a big deal to let a shot go or like me 10 minutes from the local range, here's something to try WRT no BHO on the last shot. Chamber a round and remove the magazine. Assuming you shoot right handed, take your left thumb and apply pressure on the BHO latch where it sticks out of the lower. Maintaining firm pressure on the latch, let one go. Don't worry, I've done this to TS people's rigs. You're trying to create the BHO action normally provided by the presence of a magazine, but without it. What you're trying to accomplish is differentiating inadequate gas versus magazine drag on the BC not allowing it to go back far enough to catch the latch. Feel the latch out with a magazine in and out. You'll get a sense for what the thumb has to do. Repeat a few shots to disqualify a random event.
If it stay open, you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the mags are the problem. If it won't latch, you have to consider the issue being as I mentioned, lack of ease of cycling but more likely, you're right on the edge of adequate gas flow. I'm assuming you already checked the gas block registration, looking for the soot ring to indicate that it is located so that it doesn't obstruct a portion of the gas port in the barrel. Suddenly, I'm getting a deja vu feeling, like I recently discussed this. :roll:
Get the issue of gas supply out of the way before proceeding to magazine tuning and report back.

I sometimes overlook the obvious questions like, Does the BHO work when the action and BC have been recently cleaned, only to get spotty once it gets dirty?

Hoot


Ill do the best I can replying :)
* No it didn't ship from Trident with mag
* (obvious you guys know your stuff) the composite mags in the pics were for the photo shoot and never shot with the Gun. Just the ASC mags are used. No mods to the mags, YET..
* Maybe 3 full boxes so far run through the weapon. Definitely not worked polished yet
*** I did just learn that Horandy just came out with newer version of the 450 called "Black" and am buying a case of it to have on hand to fix these issues... gulp.. Not cheap but hey God Bless America!
* ASC mags are NOT traditional 5.56 and is Single Stack
* I will be trying out the Non Mag thumb technique in early January and report back. I have loaded a single round - and then placed the mag in after, altering to the other mag to see if it worked - and either without Mag or With Mag it still does not hold the carrier open.
* Have a meeting with my Tech friend who actually supported the build. We took measurements to ensure the port and openings were large enough to provide adequate gas and found it did need opening more. That was done. Then in talking through your questions with him a bit ago - he had a great question on the Soot Ring asking me if I had noticed it was displaced or worse - missing.

I sit unable to extract the BC (because I am at work) but the moment I can get to it and disassemble I will report out.

Again I am not the most savvy of gun guy with terms - but am responsible to know its my duty to know, learn and functionally be capable of knowing my weapon inside and out. And not having the proper time to really break things down need ultimately - PATIENCE on my part. There are seemingly easy fixes. Not all apply when you customize the crap out of it.

PS I am a lefty shooter and the reason for most all things to be ambi-Dex. If I could have gone lefty on the eject port too. Dont think BM makes it to Eject Left.. or didnt two years ago...
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Re: Mag and feeding problems

Postby plant_one » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:12 pm

Hoot wrote:* I will be trying out the Non Mag thumb technique in early January and report back. I have loaded a single round - and then placed the mag in after, altering to the other mag to see if it worked - and either without Mag or With Mag it still does not hold the carrier open.


with no magazine inserted and without doing like hoot suggested, you will never get a bolt hold open on the last shot.

the follower in the magazine is what pushes the bolt catch upwards to engage the bolt on an empty magazine.

one thing to test real quick, with an empty magazine inserted (preferably one of the ones you're having trouble with) and from a closed chamber, can you pull the charging handle back and have the bolt lock open that way?

i only ask because i have seen reports, not 450 bushmaster specific but applicable since its a standard lower, of folks having issues with BHO (bolt hold open) due to out of spec bolt catch - specifically how it engages the follower, or lack of engagement as the case may be. the stem that engages the portion of the magazine follower was milled too far back if i recall correctly, and wasnt causing the bolt catch to pop upwards like it should.
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Re: Mag and feeding problems

Postby SGWINK » Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:10 pm

plant_one wrote:
Hoot wrote:* I will be trying out the Non Mag thumb technique in early January and report back. I have loaded a single round - and then placed the mag in after, altering to the other mag to see if it worked - and either without Mag or With Mag it still does not hold the carrier open.


with no magazine inserted and without doing like hoot suggested, you will never get a bolt hold open on the last shot.

the follower in the magazine is what pushes the bolt catch upwards to engage the bolt on an empty magazine.

one thing to test real quick, with an empty magazine inserted (preferably one of the ones you're having trouble with) and from a closed chamber, can you pull the charging handle back and have the bolt lock open that way?

i only ask because i have seen reports, not 450 bushmaster specific but applicable since its a standard lower, of folks having issues with BHO (bolt hold open) due to out of spec bolt catch - specifically how it engages the follower, or lack of engagement as the case may be. the stem that engages the portion of the magazine follower was milled too far back if i recall correctly, and wasnt causing the bolt catch to pop upwards like it should.



Thanks for offering more on this -

* Yes, with an empty magazine (using both that I actively use) and the Bolt Carrier in a close position I can easily pull the handle back and it locks open.

What has us stumped is that even after opening the gas port with professional milling to its optimal gauged spec and trials on just about every spring we had in stock - trimming them down in combination with different buffer (the current one is a Heavy Buffer) still having the issue of BnotHO..

How can it be pulled back with ease and lock with no issue with an empty mag yet not when using a mag on just one round. I have tried full mag through. 2 round in mage through. 1 round in the mag - load - fire and still the carrier will not hold open. If I take the handle and pull her back - "Click - held" puzzled..

So it has saying "Under Gassed"... again the easy first initial fixes are that issue. But this I believe needs more of what I was asked to report back on - the ring in the carrier for the gas. I have a house full of guests from Vegas and still have not gotten to tear it down.

But if I may - my head is around 2 things if I rule out the carrier gas ring or the carrier itself.
1) The UTG Pro Combat stock milling for the depth of the buffer. I think its quite possible its under milled just a hair. But my Smith says it isn't because it installs perfectly and the fact we can lock it open with the magazine in empty. So it does work - just not on active firing mode.
2) The Magazines are in need of a little TLC and tweaking.. Perhaps the lips need a dremel and spring refinement. Totally willing to go there as from this site, that seems to be so common.

THANKS AGAIN!!!
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Re: Mag and feeding problems

Postby Gtek » Sun Dec 25, 2016 9:39 am

Have you tried on another lower? Taken a round and confirmed ejection port clearance has been opened enough all the way to rear of port for clean ejection, >.500"? Have cases been visually inspected for any dents, scratches, etc.?
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Re: Mag and feeding problems

Postby pnw » Mon Dec 26, 2016 9:14 am

I had a couple of Bushmaster lowers that wouldn't hold open due to the pivot being drilled too close to the lower body...but that doesn't seem like the problem you are having.

You are using factory Hornady ammo??? Are you using a heavy buffer or spring? I've found no need for either and, if used, they could cause insufficient bolt movement. Perhaps overkill, but I lube and dry-fire new builds 500 times to slick the carrier/upper.
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