I love my Thumper but

Talk about the AR15 style rifles chambered in 450 Bushmaster.

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Re: I love my Thumper but

Postby offrink » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:32 pm

To see a blood trail on a lung shot the lung itself has to fill upto that point. So that can be liters of blood and a good distance without a blood trail. I had a double lung shot 12 point buck, shot with a 12 gauge slug, run over 110 yards with no blood for the first 40 yards, final 20 yards had blood spray 10-12’ each way, and smashed full speed into a 3’ diameter maple and snapping off a tine.

Unless you scramble it’s brain or near the brain stem an animal can still go. Had a hunting buddy spine shoot a buck with a 50 cal black powder. It dropped, thrashed for a few minuted, recover and drag itself 30 yards before a second and final shot was taken.
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Re: I love my Thumper but

Postby PyroRobby » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:46 pm

plant_one wrote:barring a CNS hit - ... using a hyper velocity bullet that does a lot of shockwave damage ... the other thing you caught on was changing your point of impact. which is why in your "charging scenerio" a mag dump can be so effective - you're changing your point of impact from heart/lung vitals to smashing through a bunch of CNS stuff - head, spine, brain, etc - as well as staring down the major front ambulatory area of both front shoulders. which is why when you get into that zone those 250 ftx will suit your needs just fine.

i'm sure someone with some actual pig experience with the 450 may come along and give you some more specific advice to your quarry, but when discussing how critters die - for the most part most of them follow the same set of rules :)

hth



Thank you this was a lot of good information.

The FPS rating for the 250 Grain Hornady Black is just sub 2200FPS. If I recall, on the ammo box FPS ratings are the best case scenario, so typically a non-impinged system with a maybe 24"+ barrel? If this impression is true than the 250 grain Hornady Black would be below the 2200 FPS shockwave mechanic, in my 18" mid-length impinged rifle. To reach the velocity that would mean a lighter bullet, I don't know loading to make an assumption about max load and pressure to try pushing a heavy bullet a higher velocity. Charts I have seen indicate heavier bullets will be slower results from the load recommendations, so implies don't push it. I am guessing the whole point would be how quickly the wound channel causes the bleed-out, if not a CNS hit. Plus to bleeding caused if the round achieves shockwave ballistics, risk being minus to punch due to lower sectional density. Since I think the basic point of the 450B is to punch through brush and then the game, trying to achieve the shockwave is the wrong direction for a "Brush-gun"?

Yeah, drop and bleed out in shock and in place vs big bore hole through the game that will run anyway. If you are trying to save meat, I would try and not mess up the backstrap, neck, shoulders, hams and loins. Ribs and belly don't amount to much on a wild hog they tend to be kind of lean from running. So if it isn't a headshot or a good bleeder, might mean having a thermal ocular to track in the thick brush. Logically, save money, uncomplicate the ammo, do a headshot, is what I am thinking. Headshot doesn't require a 450B; but if you are in the thick brush and walking up on a mean one, then a 450B makes a lot of sense and being on an AR platform with rapid follow-up shots and of capacity matters.

All the data and feedback has helped. I like my 450 and can see good bush use for it. Have some more experimenting to do to. Have to say though, pretty sure I will go ahead and get the Savage MSR10 Hunter in a .308, see which I wind up carrying more when I go hog hunting.
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Re: I love my Thumper but

Postby Hoot » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:44 am

Many of us involved in evaluating load behavior, both commercial and reloads, own a chronograph. It is the first tool in our repertoire. As such, many folks here will attest to the fact that factory 250's do go 2200fps. In my 20" 1:24, it might be 2250 and in the short barreled 16" carbine 2200, but unlike most ammunition specs claimed by most manufacturers, these do make spec with non-long barreled test setups.

WRT TKO factor. A 200gr bullet (personal favorite), launched at 2500fps, which is not hard to safely do in this caliber, exceeds a SAAMI .30-06 launching a 200gr bullet. I've used this analogy before but who worries about the stopping power of a .30-06. Of course, given the lower BC of the bullets we have available, the external ballistics tilt in the other direction. Given the choices of calibers I am blessed to own, I do not take my 450b out when shots will be in excess of 150 yds. I have much better choices for longer range. I bought into the philosophy of a thumper way back when, for hunting in the thick northern MN Boreal forest where a 75yd shot is at the upper limits of visibility. When I head up to deer camp (we don't have hogs) I take two different caliber uppers in case I wind up hunting long logging trails and across open sloughs.

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Re: I love my Thumper but

Postby PyroRobby » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:48 am

Hoot wrote:Many of us involved in evaluating load behavior, both commercial and reloads, own a chronograph. It is the first tool in our repertoire. As such, many folks here will attest to the fact that factory 250's do go 2200fps. In my 20" 1:24, it might be 2250 and in the short barreled 16" carbine 2200, but unlike most ammunition specs claimed by most manufacturers, these do make spec with non-long barreled test setups.

WRT TKO factor. A 200gr bullet (personal favorite), launched at 2500fps, which is not hard to safely do in this caliber, exceeds a SAAMI .30-06 launching a 200gr bullet. I've used this analogy before but who worries about the stopping power of a .30-06. Of course, given the lower BC of the bullets we have available, the external ballistics tilt in the other direction. Given the choices of calibers I am blessed to own, I do not take my 450b out when shots will be in excess of 150 yds. I have much better choices for longer range. I bought into the philosophy of a thumper way back when, for hunting in the thick northern MN Boreal forest where a 75yd shot is at the upper limits of visibility. When I head up to deer camp (we don't have hogs) I take two different caliber uppers in case I wind up hunting long logging trails and across open sloughs.

Hoot



Thanks Hoot for that info.

Yeah, I think the 450B is a really good choice bush rifle and realistically I found in heavy brush 40-50 yards really is only happening in a clearing, probably a 20 yard shot will be top distance in the heavy brush for me. For accuracy and capacity, I like the 450B over carrying a 12Ga slug shotgun too. My choice in slugs is copper sabot and not lead, I don't like lead in my food and also try and not put it in the environment, so that means ~$20 for 5 slugs. I like my 450B a lot more than my Fabarm STF/12 Professional, mostly due to having my STF/12 now since Dec last year and it is still at the gunsmith with failure to feed issues. I can spout other reason to like my 450B more; but I will just say I would choose my 450B over a 12ga, mostly due to followup shot capability with less complication and greater confidence. Lower cost to operate too, and if it goes missing from my truck is cost a lot less than my Fabarm STF/12 professional.

For general purpose where I think probably target range will exceed 75 yards, average greater than 100 yards, possibly stretch to 200 yards, that's when I would feel more comfortable having a Savage MSR10 with 20 rounds of .308. 30-06 is really nice, I just never find myself shooting out past 200 yards. My original concern was doing photography deep in big bear country, why I bought the 12ga pump. However, followup shots and the unreliability of the 12ga I bought, wanting to wild hog hunt, lead me to try the 450B. It wasn't expensive at all to assemble a 450B, I always wanted to build an AR15 from parts, and BCA had an upper for $205 was like oh do that now. At the time I hadn't discovered that Savage had the MSR10 .308 for about $1,000 or I would have gotten that instead. I dunno I am just really fond of the .308. Anyway, I think this 450B is going to replace my 12ga. The only downside is a pump shotgun flies under the radar better when traveling and crossing state lines or what worse trying to get to Alaska through Canada, tote'n a black rifle in my truck. But for heavy brush here in Texas and wild hogs, I think I am going to have happy warm feelings with my 450B.
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Re: I love my Thumper but

Postby Bmt85 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:31 pm

Had a reply, but must have taken too long, and lost it. So the short version.

200yds with a 450 shouldn't be difficult, elevation wise. Play with a ballistics calculator and a 50yd zero. Maybe even a 40yd or 30yd zero. The issue comes from drift. We are pushing a low b.c. bullet at slower speeds then most rifle cartridges. It won't take much wind to push that bullet around.

308's are a nice option, especially in an AR type platform. I recently finished a LR308 build and love it. Also slowly working on an ultra light build. Should end up around 5-5.5lbs (empty, no optics). I've heard good things about the Savage, except they designed it, meaning proprietary. I think even the trigger, which sounds pretty bad. So trying to swap parts out may be difficult.
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Re: I love my Thumper but

Postby PyroRobby » Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:16 pm

Bmt85 wrote:Had a reply, but must have taken too long, and lost it. So the short version.

200yds with a 450 shouldn't be difficult, elevation wise. Play with a ballistics calculator and a 50yd zero. Maybe even a 40yd or 30yd zero. The issue comes from drift. We are pushing a low b.c. bullet at slower speeds then most rifle cartridges. It won't take much wind to push that bullet around.

308's are a nice option, especially in an AR type platform. I recently finished a LR308 build and love it. Also slowly working on an ultra light build. Should end up around 5-5.5lbs (empty, no optics). I've heard good things about the Savage, except they designed it, meaning proprietary. I think even the trigger, which sounds pretty bad. So trying to swap parts out may be difficult.



Thanks for the reply

Yeah, Ballistic Coefficient and over 150 yards, I would feel better to have a .308 at that range. I really don't know much more than "youtube lookie here chatter" regarding the Savage MSR10. When I looked at building an AR10, the end price seemed it was going to cost $2,500+ regardless of buy assembled or put together myself. Seemed uppers and lowers aren't really any kind of a mil-spec across the various AR10 platforms from what I could tell, so I got an impression that really all AR10s are proprietary. Regardless, when I finally stumbled across the MSR10 .308 and it was ~$1,000 my eyes got really big, my heart started beating really fast and my mouth dropped open as to why I didn't find information about it sooner. I had been looking at building from Aero precision, looked at the POF Patriot and the Revolution, Looked at the CMMG and LWRC and LaRue ... and at the prices. At the beginning of this year I sold my pre-ban HK91, to a collector for 3X what I bought it for 30 years ago. Just felt it was something for a collector and I just wanted a tool. Anyway, long story to get to the point of the AR15 platform being mil-spec and truly modular, offers follow-up shots and great recoil adsorption so you can easily keep your sites on the target and not up in the air. Those follow-up shot are important on great big predators that think a human might be a good meal. Figured best way to find out and skill up was feral hog hunting and we have a feral hog problem here in TX so win-win to practice on them. I am thinking the 450B will replace my 12ga pump. But ... I am also thinking I am going to like Feral hog hunting and start trying to help with eradication, which will mean those big sounders at 100+ yards and reason to have a .308 again. I couldn't be talked out of the MSR10 because I wasn't blowing $2,500+ on another rifle with it and nobody has said it sux'd yet. If my 450B will do what I had in mind with my 12ga pump, then I will keep it and also get the MSR10 for the longer range stuff; but I don't know if I will just always pick the .308 up due to it's wide range of utility.
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Re: I love my Thumper but

Postby Bmt85 » Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:42 pm

Yeah, prices are all over the place for the large frame AR’s. The DPMS pattern (not G2) is the more standardized platform, so if you stick with that, you have a lot more choices and less issues. I have about $1200-1300 in mine, granted I bought the parts over a few months so I could catch sales. Anyway, it’s about 7.9lbs with an 18” Faxon barrel (older profile), 15” Midwest Mlok handguard, G2S trigger. So similar to the Savage, but better trigger, longer barrel, and can swap anything out if I choose to. I have another upper build spec’d out for it which would put it around 6.8-6.9lbs with a 16” Faxon heavy fluted barrel, lighter BCG, and lighter handguard. At that point it would be similar to a POF Revolution DI in weight, but I would have $1800-1900 in the rifle, not $2500, and nothing really proprietary. With the DPMS pattern you also have more caliber options, especially wildcats. You can now buy or have custom barrels made for magnum case heads. So WSM’s, or say a 50 cal straight wall cartridge that quickload predicts will make 5000 lb/ft of energy out of a 20” barrel. :twisted:
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Re: I love my Thumper but

Postby PyroRobby » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:11 pm

Right, DPMS is nearest to mil-spec for an AR10, others I have had this same discussion with have said the same thing you are saying too. I have a wish list with Aero precision for an AR10 build. My list came in at about $1,800 too. Faxon makes nice barrels. Easy to shop and get feature creep, like I don't know how many times I looked at the Krieger option and watched the price go up as I thumbed through the internet parts catalogues. My HK91 only had a 16" barrel and was extremely accurate; but then it was the blow-back system. As far as I am concerned the MSR10 Hunter seems too good to be true, usually that means it is; but folks keep saying no it really is a great deal, only one way to be sure I guess. For now I am going to tinker with the 450B more. I think Hoot's call-out of the the 200 grain round, the more I think about it the better it sounds. Seems maybe time for me to learn reloading, could be an amusing hobby and I always had an interest in doing that some day. Since the idea is to replace my 12ga slug shooter, with something with more controllable recoil and faster follow-up shots, that will still be effective for the purpose in the bush, it seems the 450B is up to the task and I am thinking it will be fun to at least try. maybe by the end of August I will pickup a MSR10 in .308, I think the prices are going to go up the closer we get to the next election. No reason not to have a bush rifle and a general purpose medium range rifle too, feral hogs aren't all going to be letting me get all that close, they are actually rather smart animals.



( sold it to a collector, Bought a shogun, the shotgun seems not to be working out)
https://imgur.com/a/iDFR45P
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Re: I love my Thumper but

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Thu Jul 04, 2019 12:22 am

Well. I really don’t want to discuss what I’ve seen with humans bleeding out. I’ve spent the latter part of my life trying to get those images out of my brain.
But here’s a good story regarding a little buck I shot several years ago up on the Red River near Paris, TX.
The little spike walked right towards me chest fully exposed.
40ish yards.
Browning A Bolt 30-06
Handloads
Nosler Ballistic Tips 150 Grain
Powder and load I can’t remember right now. (Not near my databooks).
I was in a tree stand about 13 feet.
I shot that little buck square in the chest. The bullet went through and exited the hip.
That little Poo ran 80 yards back up into the woods before crashing out. Very little blood.
I just followed his escape route back to where I thought I heard him crash and there he was.
When I field dressed him, the insides were literally jello. Nothing really recognizable. Yet that buck
Had enough adrenaline in him to make it that far.
As for actual CNS shock. He should have dropped in his tracks, but I didn’t hit anything close to his CNS.
BF41A955-014F-40D5-AA3F-ED2363B5EE89.jpeg
BF41A955-014F-40D5-AA3F-ED2363B5EE89.jpeg (1.8 MiB) Viewed 755 times
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Re: I love my Thumper but

Postby Bmt85 » Thu Jul 04, 2019 7:28 am

PyroRobby wrote:Right, DPMS is nearest to mil-spec for an AR10, others I have had this same discussion with have said the same thing you are saying too. I have a wish list with Aero precision for an AR10 build. My list came in at about $1,800 too. Faxon makes nice barrels. Easy to shop and get feature creep, like I don't know how many times I looked at the Krieger option and watched the price go up as I thumbed through the internet parts catalogues. My HK91 only had a 16" barrel and was extremely accurate; but then it was the blow-back system. As far as I am concerned the MSR10 Hunter seems too good to be true, usually that means it is; but folks keep saying no it really is a great deal, only one way to be sure I guess. For now I am going to tinker with the 450B more. I think Hoot's call-out of the the 200 grain round, the more I think about it the better it sounds. Seems maybe time for me to learn reloading, could be an amusing hobby and I always had an interest in doing that some day. Since the idea is to replace my 12ga slug shooter, with something with more controllable recoil and faster follow-up shots, that will still be effective for the purpose in the bush, it seems the 450B is up to the task and I am thinking it will be fun to at least try. maybe by the end of August I will pickup a MSR10 in .308, I think the prices are going to go up the closer we get to the next election. No reason not to have a bush rifle and a general purpose medium range rifle too, feral hogs aren't all going to be letting me get all that close, they are actually rather smart animals.



( sold it to a collector, Bought a shogun, the shotgun seems not to be working out)
https://imgur.com/a/iDFR45P


I think Savage is so inexpensive because they want to take the market away from the G2.

Anyways, sorry to derail the thread. I’m not trying to push you away from the 450, I love the cartridge, that’s why I have 2 dedicated lowers and 4 uppers. :D

The 200 XPB is a great bullet. Does great inside 100yds, maybe 150yd, depending on muzzle speed. It has a low b.c. and needs a minimum of 1800fps to expand, IIRC. So if you can SAFELY push it to 2500fps or better, it should fit your needs perfectly.

That was a nice rifle by the way!
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