Sup guys? Lets have some fun!

[wildcatter]

I am new here but have a friend that has a 450 and he has talked me into getting one. I live in Idaho and I'm wanting to use it for Mulie and Elk hunting. So.....how about you guys help me build a 400 yard Elk slaying rifle and load. I'm more than willing to resize some .458's so give me what you think would be the best combo!!

First of all, when you do this elk hunt, you gotta invite me..

Bullets of choice for me would either be the Hornady 230gr fmj-fp with a .186BC or the 325gr Barnes Busters, with a BC of .206. I would not feel under gunned with the 230's and they shoot much flatter, with a starting velocity of at least 2500fps.

Your requirement of 400 yards is entirely doable and the remaining velocities with any of our bullets will just stomp a mud hole in an elk at 400yds. The real concern is bullet construction.

A Bullet that is still expanding at 300fps out of a 45acp is not a good choice for this particular elk hunt (with the parameters of 0 to 400yds). One could shoot them far enough away, wherein the bullet is traveling at 300fps when it reaches the intended target, but that range is a fur piece out there and worst yet, if the shot is under 100yds, it'll simply explode and not penetrate. So, a bullet that will do the job of said parameters, needs to be chosen, I've named but two and there are many more. There will be guys that will suggest good bullets and they will be right, for we have a huge selection. Keep in mind, would a 45acp, at 45acp velocities, using a 230gr ball round, at 50yds kill an Elk? It shore will, big time, for an arrow has far less capabilities than a 45acp and that same ball round has more knock-down at 400yds than a .223 ball has at the muzzle, 66% more knock-down and who'd argue that an AR/.223 would not kill an elk, with the elk standing at your muzzle.

One other thought would be for a point-blank sight-in, using a ten inch circle. Why ten inches? So that when things are marginal and the shots always are marginal, you've got a margin for still being able to place the bullet into that 24" target of an elks kill zone.

Point-Blank sight in wouldn't be necessary if you were to use one of those scopes designed for the muzzle loaders. They have them that range to 300yds, but with the 230's I've described, you'll have to use one of those reticule calculators, to be able to know which reticule intersection, is representing what range. Doing this might just yield hits, on a 24" circle at 450-500yds (to-be-determined) and still have enough knock-down capabilities (62% more than the muzzle of the 223 @500yds). Of course all this doesn't quite work as described, ranges after 300yds might require a laser range finder and a range card.

To add to the mix try this reticule and computer set up.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGHYExle ... r_embedded . These scopes can be had with lighted reticules and for allot less than $300 bucks and clearance scopes for $169. But there are all manner of BDC's, these are just cheap and good quality.

I myself use a Nikko-Stirling 1.5x6 and use a point-blank sight-in that gives me a good-to-go range out to 300yds. Using a laser and a range card, regulated in ten yard increments, with click adjustments. (I'm not shy to change the sight settings for a particular range situation in the field). After 300yds, I am well within that 24" chest cavity and still have about 50% more knock-down, than the 223 and this at 1000yds. Now, before someone has an aneurysm, yes there is high kill possibilities at 1000yds, but if there is any wind, well then things change rapidly and that shot for most people is ridicules. Buuttt, this summer, we plan on a you-tube video, with us doing consistent hits at 1000yds (you'll be able to see and hear the ding,ding, ding, for about 50 rounds over say ten minutes, enough time to have to adjust for the wind) and relative terminal knock-down effects at those ranges. But this is to only demonstrate the possibilities, not the REALITIES of the real world. But I gotta tell ya guys, with my little set-up and my personal loads, I in no-away feel under-gunned or out-ranged at 500yds, shooting anything with a kill zone of a deer or larger and there are several guys here that can confirm this..

..t

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Elk would be fun. But a hunt for Bison would be awesome and those are some THICK critters. I'm getting goose bumps just thinking about it.

[BD1]

I've tried a few heavier bullets, the 325 grain FTXs and cast up to 450 grains. The length issue gets you from both ends. The action/mag length limit of 2.260 limits how far out you can seat a bullet and the internal taper of the case limits how far in you can seat a bullet. IMHO this limits lead spire points to around 325 grains max, and flat nose lead bullets to about 400 grains max, (depending on ogive profile). In copper or brass you'd hit these limits at lighter weights. The good news is that a 250 grain FTX or 300 grain flat nose out of the .450B will do just about anything that needs doing out to 300 yards or so.

BD

[Texas Sheepdawg]

What about an old lever action trick. Make the first round as a custom, a longer than Standard COAL. Place in the chamber by hand. But the following rounds in the mag would be the standard round. But you would have to know how both rounds will shoot and be able to compensate quickly if you did "Happen" to need that second round. I used to do this with my 30-30. First shot was a Nosler Boat tail 150 Grain Ballistic tip and the rest were 150 grain flat points. But you gotta know your rifle and ballistics and practice. However, I do not know if this would be a good idea with an AR. Any suggestions? Or am I just a barking lunatic?

[wildcatter]

What about an old lever action trick. Make the first round as a custom, a longer than Standard COAL. Place in the chamber by hand. But the following rounds in the mag would be the standard round. But you would have to know how both rounds will shoot and be able to compensate quickly if you did "Happen" to need that second round. I used to do this with my 30-30. First shot was a Nosler Boat tail 150 Grain Ballistic tip and the rest were 150 grain flat points. But you gotta know your rifle and ballistics and practice. However, I do not know if this would be a good idea with an AR. Any suggestions? Or am I just a barking lunatic?

Oh, You're a Lunatic ll right! My Kind of Lunatic and I love your wit..

..t

[Stealthshooter]

Your more than welcome to come Elk hunting!! It's an over the counter cow tag. It's been a hard hunt the last few years but it's still fun!!

I love what I'm hearing about the 450 being 400 yards capable!! You need to tell me more about using a flat nosed bullet. I realize it's a .45 to start with and it will knock a big hole but I have always used an expanding bullet and I have a hard time not wanting to if you know what I mean!

[wildcatter]

Your more than welcome to come Elk hunting!! It's an over the counter cow tag. It's been a hard hunt the last few years but it's still fun!!

I love what I'm hearing about the 450 being 400 yards capable!! You need to tell me more about using a flat nosed bullet. I realize it's a .45 to start with and it will knock a big hole but I have always used an expanding bullet and I have a hard time not wanting to if you know what I mean!

I know exactly what you mean.

I sport a really great 2-3" dueling scar on my right cheek. I had an expanded bullet come right back at me, that is to say it entered the animal and came straight back at me.

Expanded bullets, do-not expand equally on all sides and wobble or yawl, after they expand and can and do go in any direction after they do that. With so many years of Professional Hunting and years in the butts of High-Power Competition, I've seen the phenomenon, many, many times and of course been struck by this oft seen problem.

In the past, we always needed expanding bullets, because we have been condition to use, smaller and smaller bullets and as such needed all the help we could get. But as you know, even the venerable 300 Winchester Magnum, suffers from shot placement. In other words, when the shots are marginal and they always seem to be marginal, in the mountains, you'd better hit that elk well or it may run before it dies and usually will, just long enough to take you days to get to it.

Just a few years ago my hunting buddy, hit a deer, broadside, in the shoulder. The bullet exited into the armpit and then took a 90 degree turn, traversing down to outside of the animal, putting a long scratch on the outside of it's belly. All this is typical.

What we have got to get straight in our minds here, is that 45cal is already bigger in diameter than a 30cal expanded bullet. And that an expanded bullet slows down incredibly fast after the strike, and limits it's penetration, just when you may need penetration the most. What we need is indeed, Penetration. Couple penetration with even more tissue disruption than any expanded bullet will ever give you, all in a straight line through the animal and the Postmortem is for, BlackHawk Down and out, permanently, and all this under the most difficult of conditions.

A 230gr FMJ-FP @ 2500-2800fps, disrupts more tissue than even any expanded .375 H&H, with the additional benefit of penetration. I had a customer that shot a bull moose in the rear end, the bullet exited the breast and also killed a cow, which was standing in front of and also oriented broad-side to the bull's chest. Reportedly, .."Dropped'em both like a bad habit"..

If you just have to have expanded bullets, then you have to be concerned about their expansion speeds and place yourself in those ranges, so as to keep the bullet from over expanding, because you were to close and the elk got away because of zero penetration. You can't be too far away either, the bullet may be moving so slowly that it doesn't expand at all, thus denying yourself from the benefits of the tissue disruption, from the required expansion.

So, by now, you must be getting the picture that if a flat point disrupts more tissue than the equivalent expanded bullet and that the described range requirement worries are not necessary, you've got allot less to worry about when using non-expanding Flat-Pointed Bullets. Now, all that is necessary is to have good bullet construction and there are many to choose from.

In conclusion, if you are trying to hit the tick on an elks left ear, at 400yds, then better bullets and loads, might be in the offing. But, if "Minute-of-Grizzle" is the issue of the day, then I for one want all the chips on my side, with a "Hugh-Margin-of-Error", for when the shot becomes marginal and those shots always are marginal..

..t

[Stealthshooter]

What your saying makes perfect sense....I think it's just one of those old habits die hard things. In that case would the 325 Barnes Buster be a good choice in my quest for a 400 yard Elk slayer?

[wildcatter]

What your saying makes perfect sense....I think it's just one of those old habits die hard things. In that case would the 325 Barnes Buster be a good choice in my quest for a 400 yard Elk slayer?

I'd say yes, though trajectory is more of a consideration, but less so if you are able to achieve a load that yields 2200fps, which I did with the Busters..

..t

[Stealthshooter]

I plan on getting a 20" upper and I am not afraid to run somewhat hot loads.