action strength?

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action strength?

Postby tbirdman74 » Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:06 pm

Now that I have a 450 in what my father calls a "shell-eater", am considering a bolt gun. Was wondering if anyone knew if a rem 788 action would be strong enough to be rebarreled and withstand the punishment? Love my 788's and have an extra(not really an extra...) one in 243 in the safe. Correct bolt head size already, just don't know if the bass-ackwards bolt lug design would be strong enough.
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Re: action strength?

Postby wildcatter » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:14 pm

tbirdman74 wrote:Now that I have a 450 in what my father calls a "shell-eater", am considering a bolt gun. Was wondering if anyone knew if a rem 788 action would be strong enough to be rebarreled and withstand the punishment? Love my 788's and have an extra(not really an extra...) one in 243 in the safe. Correct bolt head size already, just don't know if the bass-ackwards bolt lug design would be strong enough.


Should be a straight forward conversion and "shouldn't" give you many problems.

PittedBore is the real expert on bolt guns vs 450b..

..t
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Re: action strength?

Postby BayouBob » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:09 pm

Glad you corrected yourself. There is no such thing as an "extra" gun. The proper terminlogy is "Not currently in daily use." :D :D
Our little ole 450 mouse gun operates at way lower pressures than a 243 so you should be fine. Like Tim said, Pitted bore has done some interesting work on bolt actions. He has reported a lot of it on this forum.
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Re: action strength?

Postby pitted bore » Tue Feb 07, 2012 9:27 pm

tbirdman74 wrote:... Was wondering if anyone knew if a rem 788 action would be strong enough to be rebarreled and withstand the punishment?
... just don't know if the bass-ackwards bolt lug design would be strong enough.
tbirdman74-
First, a bit of CYA. I don't know that your 788 is strong enough, because I haven't seen it, and it might come apart like a grenade with your next shot with your 243 cartridges or any other chambering. What I do know is that 788s were factory chambered for some cartridges that are at the upper end of the SAAMI pressure range (243, 22-250, and 308) and that they withstood proof loads for these before they left the factory. Because the 450B operates at pressures well below the 308, for example, there should be few concerns about action strength if you set up a 788 in 450B. If you decide to push pressures above the 450B factory limits, you're on your own.

{Yes, there is some room between the 450B max (about 39K psi) and the 308 max (62K psi), but once you exceed the loading data from Hornady, you have no idea how close you are to the big KaBooom. -- And I'll take that back if you either check the loads with your own pressure sensors, or have it checked in some other reliable lab. Depending on a lot of factors, the signs of excessive pressure that we usually interpret (primer appearance, case head expansion, sticky bolts, etc.) may not show up until we're above 70K psi.}

After saying that, I will acknowledge that I had a 308 built on a 788 for my grandson's deer rifle. Please believe that I would not have done this if I had the slightest qualm about the strength of the 788.

There are a couple of cautions and questions regarding a 450B conversion that you need to consider; I don't know the answers. First, the 788 works from a detachable magazine. Remington made the 788 with magazines of different dimensions for the various cartridges in which they chambered the rifles. I'm not sure any of the magazines will fit the 450B. You might try the 243 magazine to see whether they fit. The magazine probably doesn't accept the cartridges. If it does, I suspect there may be feeding difficulties. A few 788s were chambered for the 44 Mag pistol round, and those magazines may be a better fit. I'm only guessing at this. I know that magazines for 788s used to be scarce and also expensive; I haven't check recently to see whether that's changed. If no factory magazine fits the 450B, then you're stuck with paying for the making of a custom magazine, or using the rifle as a single shot.

A second problem may be the size of the reciever port, which is relatively small on the 788. Check to see whether a 450B cartridge rolls into and out of the port easily.

If you rebarrel the rifle to 450B, you probably should specify an barrel countour that's a bit heavier than the 788's usual weight. The original barrels were pretty light in many of the 788's different cartridges. The big hole in the 450B barrel may require a barrel of greater diameter than the original 788 barrels.

If you mount a scope, a third possible problem is that the 788 ejects some cartridges so that they bounce off the cap and housing for the windage adjustment, and land back in the receiver port. This can really slow down a reload, either from the magazine or as a single shot.

Another problem generally with the 788 is that the rear lockup on the bolt allows more case stretch than with front-locking bolts. The phenomenon is very real. I can get only 2-3 loads with the 788 before the cases are starting to show signs of impending case head separation. The same cases and loads will go a dozen loadings in my M70 308. I'm not sure how this would affect a 450B, if it's operated at its specified lower pressures.

The 788 has a minor reputation of having bolt handles break off. They were brazed on at the factory; sometimes flaws in the process show up and a shooter is left holding an unattached bolt handle. A careful and knowledgeable gunsmith can reattach it successfully.

On the plus side, 788 rifles are generally considered to be accurate, and this should hold for a 450B. It has a fast lock time. The bolt can be operated quickly because bolt rotation is only 60 degrees, and the bolt is shorter than usual.

If you could check whether the 450B rounds fit the magazine, and whether they go through the receiver port easily, and report your observations here, it would be helpful to other persons considering this conversion.

I'll try to do the same when I next handle my grandson's 308.

Good luck.
--Bob
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Re: action strength?

Postby tbirdman74 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:06 pm

PB, thanks a bunch, lots of good info. I have already looked ot the fit of the 243 magazine, width is good, except for a ridge that's stamped into each side that corresponds to the bottleneck of the 243 case. Not a big issue, can be machine out from the outside. Plus I'd have cool little slots to see how many rounds are in the mag, not that it would be important , only get three in it. As far as length, the mag is longer than than 450 factory load, so some modification would be necessary, but it also opens the posibility of moving the stack forward or aft in the magazine to deal with possible feeding issues.
To check the receiver port, I snapped an empty case into the bolt in the receiver and worked the bolt to see if it would eject. Had no problems coming back and swinging out through the port, but hung in the bolt face. As I did this in super slow-mo to see where and how everything was fitting, I didn't expect it to go flying. It did still stick, and would do so even out of the gun. As this is a gun I have never shot since I got it, as a matter of fact it's the first time I've handled it since I put it in the safe, I need to look at that a little closer. If I could ever find a set of dies for 450, I really want to try some dummy rounds thru it and check for function. As for the barrel, I agree on a heavier contour, and a heavier stock, wouldn't wan't this to be a seven or eight pound gun. I've heard that the bolts break, I guess so far I've been lucky. Between my 223 and my 243(the one I do shoot all time) I've got about 4-5k between them and have had zero issues with either on. Other than losing a magazine, and yes they're still spend. 45-65 bucks, when you can find them. I'm pretty satisfied with the factory loads in my bushy, and if they shoot as good from a bolt gun, I wouldn't need to load them any hotter. Again thanks for the input, this could get interesting. Wife said not to buy any guns til I'm healed up and can go back to work, but she didn't say anything about building one...

Don't know why word below is there, can't seem to scroll down to it with my tablet.
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Re: action strength?

Postby tbirdman74 » Wed Feb 08, 2012 7:02 pm

Quick update, rem 788 project got back burnered. No other reason than upon closer inspection, donor gun is way too good looking and appears to not have been shot much, very limited wear on bolt and n receiver. I'm gonna continue with the project when I find a more suitable donor, one with a shot out barrel or some such thing. That and I'm heading back to the oilfield soon, and won't have much time for it anyway. I got some more questions, but I'll save them for when i get back into it. Thanks .
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