Had an idea for a 45 or 458 caliber Mosin Nagant

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Had an idea for a 45 or 458 caliber Mosin Nagant

Postby Clipity » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:03 pm

So I have this Mosin with a wasted barrel and got to thinking. Has anyone taken the 7.62x54r and cut it at the sholder then loaded with a 45 or 458 cal bullet? It's just a tought as I have read talk about using everything from 44mag, 30/06, 375H&H,223, 45/70 and 500S&W in this rifle. If the 7.62 case could be used it would be a plus since nothing would have to be done to the bolt face and you would have a case that measures 1.522 from the top of the rim to the sholder, plenty of room for powder.

TIA Clipity
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Re: Had an idea for a 45 or 458 caliber Mosin Nagant

Postby bigboreshooter » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:05 pm

Go for it. You obviously have thought about it enough. Go ahead and try it.
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Re: Had an idea for a 45 or 458 caliber Mosin Nagant

Postby Hoot » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:14 am

Clipity wrote:So I have this Mosin with a wasted barrel and got to thinking. Has anyone taken the 7.62x54r and cut it at the sholder then loaded with a 45 or 458 cal bullet?...snip
TIA Clipity


No Can Do. The case ID at the shoulder is approximately .425 inches. As such, neither the .452 nor .458 bullet will fit inside. The .44 caliber bullet may fit natively or with a little reaming, depending upon the wall thickness of the particular batch of brass case you use. Emphasis upon brass, not steel.

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Re: Had an idea for a 45 or 458 caliber Mosin Nagant

Postby pitted bore » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:26 pm

FIRST POST: SOME HISTORY
Clipity wrote:So I have this Mosin with a wasted barrel and got to thinking. Has anyone taken the 7.62x54r and cut it at the sholder then loaded with a 45 or 458 cal bullet? ...
Clipity-
Because you asked:

A sawed off 45-caliber version of the 7.62x54R was used developed in the 1860s and used widely in Eastern Europe in the 1880s before the 7.62x54R was made in its final form. The cartridge is known by several names, including 11.15x36R. Both rifles and revolvers revolvers were chambered for it. Here's a linked photo of the cartridge from a Russian web site:
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Image
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That web site is here: Владислав Каштанов

(Notice the very nice photos of the Montenegrin 1870/1874 Gasser cavalry revolver on that site. It was really a big chunk of steel. Ronald Coleman used the 1880 version of the revolver in a really swashbucking movie, "The Prisoner of Zenda", in 1937, and Warren Beatty used one in "McCabe and Mrs. Miller".)

Dimensionally, the rim and base of the 7.62x54R and 11.15x36R are identical; the rim may be a squidge thicker on the older cartridge. It was a black powder cartridge, of course, but revolvers would spontaneously disassemble when firing the rifle version of the cartridge. I haven't a clue why the later Russian 7.62x54R so closely resembled the Austrian at the back end, but you can look it up.

Here are links to some more dimensional drawings and photos: 11.3 Montenegrin and 11.2x36 Werndl

History lesson ends. Please post if you find errors.

Next post: Trial run of Clipity's wildcat.
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Re: Had an idea for a 45 or 458 caliber Mosin Nagant

Postby pitted bore » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:29 pm

SECOND POST: A TRIAL RUN
Clipity wrote:If the 7.62 case could be used it would be a plus since nothing would have to be done to the bolt face and you would have a case that measures 1.522 from the top of the rim to the sholder, plenty of room for powder.
Clipity-
I rarely disagree with Hoot's posts, but I think it should be possible to make a 452 wildcat based on the sawed-off 7.62x54R case. Here's a photo of a cobbled-together trial run I made this morning:
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115x40R.jpg
Trial Run with Clipity's wildcat
115x40R.jpg (59.16 KiB) Viewed 24169 times

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Last summer I picked up some 1x-fired S&B 7.62x54R cases at the local range. I dug one out and used a Dremel to cut off the shoulder and neck. I measured the case wall thickness just inside the new case mouth; it was 0.0150", which is less than the case mouth thickness of a 30-06. If you double the wall thickness to 0.030, and add a 0.452 diameter bullet, the result is 0.482. The nominal base diameter of the 7.62x54R case is 0.489. So, a 7.62x54R case, cut off and formed onto a 452 bullet will be a straight-sided case with sides that are very slightly not parallel, and that taper from base to mouth.

I found my 7.62x54R shell holder for my reloading press, removed the depriming pin from a 45 acp RCBS expander die, lubed the inside of the sawed-off case, and ran the case up into the die. It came out a little lumpy, but not bad. I opened the mouth a bit with the Hornady 450B expander die, and then seated a 250-grain FTX Hornady bullet. Behold! From the seating die emerged a rough trial version of Clipity's proposed wildcat.

A 452 bullet is 0.452 inches time 25.4 mm/inch, or 11.5 mm diameter. Official drawings show the base-to-shoulder length of the 7.62x54R case is 39.61mm (CIP) or 40.36mm (SAAMI), which averages really close to 40mm. My trial-run case is shorter than this. The first-draft name for the first-draft example is 11.5x40R.

The case will not have the powder capacity of either the 450B or the 460 S&W. It should slightly exceed the 454 Casull case, which is 35.13mm long.

So, have a reamer ground, install a 452 barrel on the M-N, ream the chamber, prep a bunch of cases, and let us know how things work out. (If you go into any quantity production of the case, it might be nice to have a trim die made.)

Next: Some thoughts on a 450/7.62x54R wildcat.

(edited to repair CIP dimension on 7.62x54R length)
Last edited by pitted bore on Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Had an idea for a 45 or 458 caliber Mosin Nagant

Postby pitted bore » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:34 pm

THIRD POST: SOME THOUGHTS

Clipity-
It seems to me that wanting a cartridge shooting a 452 bullet to fit a M-N bolt face is a perfectly good reason for a new wildcat. However;

[1] If you are not insistant on the 452 bullet, you could have fun with either the 9.3x53R or 8.2x53R cartridges. Both are Finnish semi-wildcats based on the 7.62x54R case, shooting 8mm and 9.3mm bullets, and are made to fit the magazine of M-N rifles. I've read that brass is available for both. If not, fire-forming would be easy enough.

[2] The rimmed version of the 300 H&H also has a rim that should fit the M-N bolt face. The case might be a bit long for the M-N receiver; that should be checked.

[3] For some real power behind a 452 bullet, you might consider blowing out the untrimmed 7.62x54R case. Here's a drawing of a possibility. Let me know if you pursue this further.
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115x54R.jpg
Sketch of wildcat 452 based on 7.62x54R
115x54R.jpg (41.02 KiB) Viewed 24169 times

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--Bob
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Re: Had an idea for a 45 or 458 caliber Mosin Nagant

Postby Hoot » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:57 pm

OK, I stand corrected. I saw the print for the 7.62x54r and saw that the OD tapered from .486 at the base to .457 where the shoulder begins and assumed that if you cut it off just below the shoulder, then .457 - .030 would equal a mouth of .427 ID and hence would be too narrow for either the .452 or .458, without blowing out the entire case.

The case taper from .486 to .457 must happen all of the sudden up near the shoulder, because if it were linear, then even half way there it would be .472 (-.030=.442=too narrow).

Help an old guy out. What am I missing?

courtesy 7.62x54r.net

Image

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Re: Had an idea for a 45 or 458 caliber Mosin Nagant

Postby wildcatter » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:33 pm

LOL...Ok, 'Ol Man (with emphasis on OLD), here it is..

The .486" case web area if blown out straight and assuming a couple of things. 1). The case neck thickness is .025 as your print shows (case neck thickness of .366" minus the bullet dia of .311" = .025"). Therefore if you take .486 and subtract .025, you get a bullet that's .461" dia, in a straight walled case, like so many other straight walled cases. 2). That it's a straight walled case and if you keep the pressures down in the pistol pressure realm, then a straight walled case will extract, without problems. 3). Any bullet smaller than .461" will cause the case to have a taper and hence, and a better pressure profile, for extraction purposes. A .4515 bullet, in a case that starts life out at .486, will have minimum taper for a auto-chucker, but in a bolt gun, would "Probably" be fine. With a .429 bullet (.44), the taper runs into the excessive and "Will" extract from the dirtiest of chambers. 4). The case thickness gets thicker, the closer you get to the base. It is that thickness that will finally determine the bullet dia, in a std 7.62x54r case.

Can I get the Walker for you now..wink.. The next thing to happen in your old age, is you're going to go blind, if you don't quit eating the Dawg's S'mores..double winks..

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Re: Had an idea for a 45 or 458 caliber Mosin Nagant

Postby Hoot » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:18 pm

It just hit me, the error of my reasoning. I was thinking in terms of a case length (1.522") consistent with using it in an AR15 limited magazine and having to cut the case much shorter than what a long action, bolt action rifle can accommodate. Doh! Where's my Geritol?

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Re: Had an idea for a 45 or 458 caliber Mosin Nagant

Postby pitted bore » Sun Mar 18, 2012 7:31 am

Hoot wrote:... Doh! Where's my Geritol?

Hoot-
Forget the Geritol stuff. All us cool old geezers knock back a slug of Hadacol before designing a wildcat.
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We are careful with our stash, because it hasn't been made since the early 1950s. Lots of vitamins, minerals, 12% alcohol, and a bit of hydrochloric acid. Look it up on wikipedia. Jerry Lee Lewis does a pretty good version of the "Hadacol Boogie" on youtube: Jerry Lee for Hadacol.

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edited to update image url
Last edited by pitted bore on Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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