Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

[wildcatter]

Just a quick update on what Pac-Nor said about my rifle barrel. I questioned which contour I should use for this cartridge in a Savage action. They recommended the "SAVAGE VARMINT" contour.

Just thought I would put that out there so anyone else considering this would know. I think wildcatter probably knows FAR MORE about this caliber than anyone, but this was the barrel makers recommendation.

Hope it helps,
Shaun

Well Shaun my man, they aren't wrong, my rec was for a light weight, which can be done too and I've done many, with no problems at the .680 dia muzzle. I might would ask them if for a light weight Varmint barrel, still a heavy weight of sorts, far heaver than a heavy sporter weight, but way lighter than a full patch Bull Barrel. I've had ideas, for years, of a full patch with two, deep groove with about a 2 tpi ball nose thread, do one and then start another at 180° to that one, but do that one in a reverse thread, to get a cross hatch design. My style of fluting, that would start about three inches in front of the action. This would really lighten the barrel up and maintain the diameter strength, at the same time..t

[dogsniper]

A snag in my bolt action project. Not that I do not fully intend to build this rifle, but the main reason I was going to is the "proposed" Indiana Deer Hunting regulations changes that were to take effect for the 2011 deer season. Those changes were to allow "pistol" cartridges, or "wildcat" cartridges with a case length maximum of 1.800" and a minimum bullet diameter of .357. The current rules are maximum case length of 1.625". My original idea was to have a "wildcat" version of the 450b and I would have to trim my cases to the 1.625 and have my barrel short chambered for this to work. When the proposed rule changes came out, I knew that I could just have the full chamber and shoot factory loads if I desired to. Now Indiana has postponed any changes until they have another meeting in January and possibly change the cartridge requirements, but leave the hunting dates the same.....Political bull-crap basically, but that is the way it is. For now I am on hold until the state decides what it is going to do, which will then decide for me if I can go full chamber or have to go back to my original plan of a short chamber.....

I will keep updates on what Indiana DNR decides to do, and once I do get to start my build...I will post updates and hopefully pictures. After all the helpful tips and hints you all gave me, I felt I should let you all know where I stand with this project. It is currently "on the back burner", but NOT canceled!

[Hoot]

A snag in my bolt action project. Not that I do not fully intend to build this rifle, but the main reason I was going to is the "proposed" Indiana Deer Hunting regulations changes that were to take effect for the 2011 deer season. Those changes were to allow "pistol" cartridges, or "wildcat" cartridges with a case length maximum of 1.800" and a minimum bullet diameter of .357. The current rules are maximum case length of 1.625". My original idea was to have a "wildcat" version of the 450b and I would have to trim my cases to the 1.625 and have my barrel short chambered for this to work. When the proposed rule changes came out, I knew that I could just have the full chamber and shoot factory loads if I desired to. Now Indiana has postponed any changes until they have another meeting in January and possibly change the cartridge requirements, but leave the hunting dates the same.....Political bull-crap basically, but that is the way it is. For now I am on hold until the state decides what it is going to do, which will then decide for me if I can go full chamber or have to go back to my original plan of a short chamber.....

I will keep updates on what Indiana DNR decides to do, and once I do get to start my build...I will post updates and hopefully pictures. After all the helpful tips and hints you all gave me, I felt I should let you all know where I stand with this project. It is currently "on the back burner", but NOT canceled!

Would the DNR really bust you for 7/100 inch excessive case length? I can just see the DNR officer out there with the Brown & Sharpe micrometer.

Hoot

[bushmeister]

Would the DNR really bust you for 7/100 inch excessive case length? I can just see the DNR officer out there with the Brown & Sharpe micrometer.
Hoot

The law is the law, and he should be applauded for following it. I doubt they would break out the micrometer, but when you shoot that B&C buck and go to put it in the record book....

[pitted bore]

A snag in my bolt action project.

Shaun-
Well, rats! It looks like my Springfield will have to remain the only 450B bolt rifle in the known universe for a while longer.

My original idea was to have a "wildcat" version of the 450b and I would have to trim my cases to the 1.625 and have my barrel short chambered for this to work.

It seems to me that this might work. With a strongly tapered cartridge trimmed short, and a chamber shortened by not running in the reamer fully, it would be possible for the cartridge case to wedge in the chamber. Because your proposed difference is 0.075 inches and because the 450B case is pretty straight, the wedging effect might be avoided. I presume you've done the measurements?

. . .once I do get to start my build...I will post updates and hopefully pictures. After all the helpful tips and hints you all gave me, I felt I should let you all know where I stand with this project. It is currently "on the back burner", but NOT canceled!

I hope it works out for you and the other Indiana deer hunters.

Is your Manson reamer order still being processed?

Please keep us informed.

--Bob

[wildcatter]

dogsniper, just a thought here. Why not pick a bullet that can be seated into the case far enough to give you the OAL length you desire (you're only talking .075 thou)? Using the factory ammo, which may be able to seat further into the case, as well) for other projects..t

[pitted bore]

I did some more poking around on the web, and I'm not sure that dogsniper's original plan of using a "450 Bushmaster Short" would be legal.

As I understand it, the current Indiana regulations specify a "pistol cartridge", which the 450B obviously is not. The 450B can be chambered in a Contender or something similar, but so can a 6mm PPC. It clearly isn't a pistol cartridge. Perhaps it could qualify if there's a wildcat loophole in the current regulations.

I cannot find the actual regulations for IN. Does it specify "straight-wall" pistol cartridges? If so, that will also exclude the 450B.

A proposal that was supposed to be a copy of the Indiana regulation was introduced in the Michigan house to allow rifles shooting pistol cartridges to be used in the shotgun-only regions of Michigan. The Michigan proposal specified the 1.80 inch case length, and also specified "straight-wall" pistol cartridges. This wording would exclude the 450B, but would include the 460 S&W. Some discussion of that proposed Michigan law can be read at these two links:
1) http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,175560.0.html
2)http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,175560.0.html

Wildcatter-
The problem with your plan is that the IN and MI regulations both specify case length, not over-all length.

This thread is probably not the place to discuss the wisdom and wackiness of legislators and regulators of any state.

The focus should be in helping Shaun with his bolt-rifle project.

--Bob

[dogsniper]

Not really sure how to post what others have said...but below is from a response PittedBore has....

"I did some more poking around on the web, and I'm not sure that dogsniper's original plan of using a "450 Bushmaster Short" would be legal.

As I understand it, the current Indiana regulations specify a "pistol cartridge", which the 450B obviously is not. The 450B can be chambered in a Contender or something similar, but so can a 6mm PPC. It clearly isn't a pistol cartridge. Perhaps it could qualify if there's a wildcat loophole in the current regulations.

I cannot find the actual regulations for IN. Does it specify "straight-wall" pistol cartridges? If so, that will also exclude the 450B."

The Indiana law is funny. You are correct, they specify pistol cartridges, OR cartridges with a maximum case length of 1.625" and minimum bullet diameter of .357". I actually contacted the Indiana DNR and asked them if a "wildcat" cartridge that was NOT actually intended for a pistol but that WOULD follow their guideline's would be legal and they responded that IT WOULD BE LEGAL....Actually printed their response and laminated it "just in case" I ever needed to prove it to a C.O. Other wildcatter's here in Indiana have been using a 35WSSM. They are taking a 325WSSM, rebarreling it with a .358 barrel, necking up the cartridges and using those....NOT AT ALL a pistol cartridges...but it meets all IDNR guidelines...for now. I was going to short chamber mine (1.625" case length) and seat the bullet to within a few thousandths of the lands and grooves, heavy crimp and call it a 45 Rooster. I know...why "Rooster"....that's an old nickname my Uncle gave me when I was about 13 and cocky as all get out....he still calls me that to this day so it seemed to fit.

Do I think they would really check with a dial caliper the length of the case? No, I do not. But I haven't won the lottery yet either so I don't trust my luck that much. lol And, I do consider myself a law abiding citizen (for the most part) and have absolutely no intentions of giving any C.O. a reason to confiscate my firearms. Please don't think I am trying to be a smart butt here, I assure you I am not, It is just that the majority of my hunting is done on Public land that is managed by the DNR and it is VERY common for the C.O.'s the show up at the designated parking areas and check to be sure everyone has a valid hunting license. I have never, ever seen them check anyone's firearm or bow for that matter (as Indiana has a minimum draw poundage on bows), but I feel as soon as I try to "pull a fast one", my luck it I will get hammered. If I follow the law, I don't ever have to worry about that.

As for the Reamer...I have spoken via email with Dave Manson, I have not ordered it yet, thankfully, because if they do in fact change the law, I will also order the go/no-go gauges. His recommendation for me if I short chamber it was to trim two cases, one of them to 1.626 to use as a go gauge, and one shorter as a no gauge. I don't remember off the top of my head how long he said to make that one...have to look back at my notes.

Hope this clears up some of the discussion on what is driving my decision making!

Happy New Year to all!

[wildcatter]

I did some more poking around on the web, and I'm not sure that dogsniper's original plan of using a "450 Bushmaster Short" would be legal.

As I understand it, the current Indiana regulations specify a "pistol cartridge", which the 450B obviously is not. The 450B can be chambered in a Contender or something similar, but so can a 6mm PPC. It clearly isn't a pistol cartridge. Perhaps it could qualify if there's a wildcat loophole in the current regulations.

I cannot find the actual regulations for IN. Does it specify "straight-wall" pistol cartridges? If so, that will also exclude the 450B.

A proposal that was supposed to be a copy of the Indiana regulation was introduced in the Michigan house to allow rifles shooting pistol cartridges to be used in the shotgun-only regions of Michigan. The Michigan proposal specified the 1.80 inch case length, and also specified "straight-wall" pistol cartridges. This wording would exclude the 450B, but would include the 460 S&W. Some discussion of that proposed Michigan law can be read at these two links:
1) http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,175560.0.html
2)http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,175560.0.html

Wildcatter-
The problem with your plan is that the IN and MI regulations both specify case length, not over-all length.

This thread is probably not the place to discuss the wisdom and wackiness of legislators and regulators of any state.

The focus should be in helping Shaun with his bolt-rifle project.

--Bob

Bad-Bob, If the 460S&W works, which it's OAL is .050" longer than ours, and our case length is .100" shorter than the minimum they are seeking, then why won't ours go? If it's because it has not been chambered in a pistol yet, well, they can hold their Horses, because I will soon be offering one..t

So, Dogsniper, did I understand you correctly, the 450b fits in a loop hole, and can be used?

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Bloody Politicians and law makers have way too much time
ON their hands and too much of our tax money IN their hands....