Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

[pitted bore]

T-
Responding to your 30 December above question to me:

Part of what I wrote above on 30 December is wrong, and I apologize. It was based on an incorrect interpretation of Indiana regulations.

Here's my statement that contains errors:

I did some more poking around on the web, and I'm not sure that dogsniper's original plan of using a "450 Bushmaster Short" would be legal.

As I understand it, the current Indiana regulations specify a "pistol cartridge", which the 450B obviously is not. The 450B can be chambered in a Contender or something similar, but so can a 6mm PPC. It clearly isn't a pistol cartridge. Perhaps it could qualify if there's a wildcat loophole in the current regulations.

I cannot find the actual regulations for IN. Does it specify "straight-wall" pistol cartridges? If so, that will also exclude the 450B.

I found the current IN regulations on firearms that are legal for deer-hunting. The quote below is taken from http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/files/fw-Deer_Hunting_Equipment.pdf:

Handguns: Handguns, other than muzzleloading, must have a barrel at least 4 inches long and must fire a bullet of .243-inch diameter or larger. The handgun cartridge case, without the bullet, must be at least 1.16 inches long. Full metal-jacketed bullets are not permitted. Handguns are not permitted on any military areas.

Some types of handgun cartridges legal for deer hunting include: .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .45 Colt, .45 Long Colt, .45 Winchester Magnum, .35 Remington, .357 Herrett.

Some illegal handgun cartridges for deer hunting are 38 Special, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Colt New Police, 38/200, 38 Long Colt, 38 Super, 38 ACP, 38 Colt Auto, 45 ACP, 45 Automatic and 45 Auto Rim. All 25/20, 32/20 and 30 carbine ammunition is prohibited also.

Rifles with pistol cartridges: Rifles must fire a cartridge with a bullet of .357-inch diameter or larger; have a minimum case length of 1.16 inches; and have a maximum case length of 1.625 inches. These rifle cartridges can be used only during the deer firearms season.

Some cartridges that are legal include the following: .357 Magnum, .38-40 Winchester, .41 Magnum, .41 Special, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, .44-40 Winchester, .45 Colt, .454 Casull, .458 SOCOM, .480 Ruger, .475 Linebaugh, .50 Action Express, .500 S&W

Some illegal rifle cartridges for deer hunting are the .30-30 Winchester, .444 Marlin and .45-70 Govt.

The IN regulators are interpreting "rifles with pistol cartridges" not very strictly, except for min and max length and for bullet diameter. This has resulted in several wildcat rifle cartridges being developed for Indiana deer hunting and assorted pistol wildcats being adapted to rifles.

Do you already know of the AR-based version of the 25 WSSM necked up to 358? It's sort of cute. Here's a link to a web site by a man building these for Indiana rifle hunting under current rules: http://www.dtechsuperstore.com/WSSM%20page.htm.

As Shaun/dogsniper learned, his idea for a 450B-Short cartridge in a rifle was acceptable. Chambering the standard length 450B in a pistol would not make it a "pistol cartridge" under present IN regulations. Even though there exist many pistols chambered in 45-70, the cartridge case is too long to be legal currently in IN as a rifle cartridge.

Although the 460 S&W is a pistol cartridge, it does not work as a rifle cartridge under current IN rules; its case is too long. However, the proposed rule changes would have made it an acceptable in rifles, and would also have made legal the standard-length 450B.

Under current IN regulations, it is legal to hunt deer with handguns chambered for the 30-30, 45-70, 460 S&W, and 450B.

I made a further error in my thinking about "straight-sided". The 38 Special, 357 Mag, 357 Max, all have parallel sides, as do the .45 Colt, 454 Casull, and 460 S&W. These are clearly "straight-sided". A bunch of other pistol cartridges have tapered cases, like the 41 Magnum, 44 Magnum, 45 Win Mag. These cartridges with tapered cases are however considered "straight-sided" because they have no neck. The 450B has a tapered case with straight sides.

I hope this post has fewer errors that my earlier one.

--Bob

[Hoot]

A year ago almost to the week, when I was first considering a high power AR based cartridge, the .358 WSSM was among the top candidates. Excellent TKO value, but the techniques and tools for making the ammunition had not matured as much as it has now and I figured in for a dime, in for a dollar and went with larger calibers instead. If for no other reason than cost of reloading, my next black rifle project may be an LR-308 with the options it presents for other calibers like the .260 Remington, 7mm-08, .338 Federal and .358 Winchester, to name a few. The argument against the additional weight is lost considering my 450b, with all the recoil abatement add-ons weighs more than the bull barrel LR-308 anyway and I didn't mind toting it around on a Safari Sling this past deer season. I must admit, the efficiency of the WSSM case appeals to my scientific side though.

Hoot

[dogsniper]

So, it has been a long wait on the state of Indiana to pass the new regulations allowing the 1.8" maximum case length for legal rifle cartridges...Their last meeting was January 11, 2012, and I have not seen yet whether or not they have passed this. Apparently, even if it does pass, it will have a 90 day "wait" period for public comment. This is because the bullet case length is only ONE of the many proposed rule changes. After all public comments are reviewed, then the proposed changed will or won't become new rule. Seems weird they would wait that long...our state hunting regulations are normally released in June or July.

Any way, the info I have continued to gather is that McGowen will sell me a "Pre Fit" Savage barrel, that is already threaded, contoured, crowned and blued for $260 plus shipping, but I have to supply the reamer. My local gunsmith will install the pre-fit barrel for $75 if I supply the go/no go gauges.

Looks like my old Savage '06 is gonna get an upgrade even cheaper than I thought!

Keeping my fingers crossed this law gets passed!

[Texas Sheepdawg]

That has got to be some of the most retarded law I have ever seen on the books.
A 30-30 illegal to hunt deer?
Man..... It's good to be in Texas.

[dogsniper]

Agreed on the silly law...Not to get TOO involved in the politics of it all...the even stranger part is that if you choose to hunt with a T/C Contender or Encore PISTOL, you can use high caliber rifle rounds, and it's legal....has been for years. Nothing smaller than a 243 (no 223 or 22-250), but still. Does shortening the barrel to 15" REALLY make a 308 or 30-06 more safe??? Not really, it's just the old thought that so few people are willing to hunt with a pistol with that much recoil, they figure the only ones that will are ethical enough not to take unsafe shots at game. But we are allowed to use what ever rifles we want to hunt varmints....So chew on this bit of crazy.....Perfectly legal to use a 300win mag (if you choose) to shoot coyotes or ground hogs...but not deer.

Oh well....whether or not it makes logical sense doesn't seem to be the issue here. What is good news though, is that I have secured two other people that are going to pitch in on the cost of the reamer and gauges, so there will end up being (3) three bolt chuckers for the 450bm coming soon....can't wait!

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Indiana law makers need to seriously cut down on their crack consumption or whatever it is that they are smoking. Or course, I've heard that Iowa is just as bad, if not worse.
We can use .22 centerfire or higher. Not that I would shoot a deer with my HBar unless I just had to, but still. Now, a law that I do agree with is the language discouraging the use of buck shot in shotguns for deer. But for predators and home protection, I have no issues with Buckshot.
But for any critical thinking sober human with a high school education or higher to say that a 30-30 or 30-06 or 300 WM should not be used to hunt deer by use of a rifle, yet in the same breath, claim that rifle cartridges in the TC are safer.... Well I'm sorry. Those folks are fools. And it sounds like a mooncalf stampede In Indiana. I hope you guys can get these idiots out of your government soon.

[firehawk]

You know what's REALLY crazy? In Indiana you could hunt squirrel with a .30-06 if you desired. Hell I could hunt squirrel with my .450. You can use a high powered rifle to hunt deer if you had what they call a deprivation permit, but not with a regular deer license.

IMO, it all goes back to the fact Indiana is a small state compared to Texas... DUH... and people "back then" were concerned about the range of high powered rifles.

[wildcatter]

I have secured two other people that are going to pitch in on the cost of the reamer and gauges, so there will end up being (3) three bolt chuckers for the 450bm coming soon....can't wait!

When you do that, I'd encourage you to contact my Buddy Dave (http://www.mansonreamers.com - He built my first reamer and builds them for Bushy or at least he did, not sure who does now), and mention my name..

..t

[wildcatter]

Not that I would shoot a deer with my HBar unless I just had to, but still. Now, a law that I do agree with is the language discouraging the use of buck shot in shotguns for deer. But for predators and home protection, I have no issues with Buckshot.

Tex, get up out of the Hot Chocolate and smell the S'mores..wink

As with the 450b, there are good bullet combinations and many bad ones, for a particular mission, albeit, fewer for the 450.

If you choose that correct bullet for the 223, it makes an excellent choice for deer. Case in point, my mini-14, with my family and my buddy's family, has accounted for more than 60 white tails, and our deer prolly average more than 50lbs bigger than those Texas deer. Bbuuutttt, and this is a big "But", they have to sport the Speer 70gr bullet (http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics ... aspx?id=14), to make this a responsible proposition and not shoot it over 125yds, for instantaneous kills. I kid you not, we could shoot them in the lower leg and they'd just tip over. It was so pervasively prevalent, that I put two Forensic Pathologist's on the phenomenon we were seeing. To which they couldn't come up with any meaningful ideas, other than, the animals electrical system, was being "Short Circuited" (my amateur analysis of their data). But for penetration, considering that if a real varmint bullet would blow-up on the first layer of skin, I saw my Son take a 150lb doe at 250 yds. the animal was in FULL run on an open forty acre field. The kill was not instantaneous, like the others under 125yds were, but when he hit it in the Quarter Panels, the animal went down for the count and didn't go anywhere else. The bullet went completely through. That's two complete hind quarters, four layers of skin (through one leg, exiting into the crotch, before entering the next leg), breaking the bones of both legs, shattering the pelvis (and the bullet never hit the pelvis), with a three inch hole all the way through, except it came out full caliber.

I guess I'm saying, you're right, for most of the shooting public, the 223 ain't enough, but I say if you choose the right bullet, under the right circumstances, we can kill deer with with 223 and efficiently. However, that's where the 450b comes in, we can choose everything wrong and still come out way ahead of every other cartridge out there. The 450b is very forgiving. As I always say.."when the shots are marginal and they always are, take enough gun!!"

Now for buckshot. We recently had a good guy shoot a bad guy, who was bent on killing the good guy. The shot, wounded the bad guy, and some of it left his home, went across the street, entered that home and killed an old woman. The bad guy got 5 years for home invasion, the good guy got 25 years. I say, using a shotgun for home protection, 7 1/2's will not penetrate the wall and is still, very devastating on the bad guys, within the room.

My old father-in-law (who was truly a hunting Machine), would always animate that all these "Highfaluting" guns, I always sported, were great, but if I really wanted to bring home the bacon, I should take a shotgun. That old Razorback, killed hundreds of deer with everything from #2's through 000 buck. He said that the 2's needed to be within 15yds, with a neck shot, and that 00 & 000 buck shot, was all done at 50yds. Shotguns are indeed great, they just have very limiting factors, to make them work well..

During deer season, Dad, would carry an old LC Smith, double barrel (he once killed 11 ducks with both barrels fired simultaneously), in one barrel he carried 7 1/2's for squirrels, partridge, wood-cock, rabbits and such, the other barrel, with 00 Buck, and that for the Larger Squirrels and he ALWAYS, brought home the bacon. He died, still hunting at 88 years old. On his death bed, he was making plans for the next hunt, I think he made it. If I look hard, with my inner eye, I can just barely see him and Heavenly Father with their old scratched up, rust patina shotguns, wearing tattered orange hats, making their way through the forests, now..

..t

[9x19MdM]

This is Bailey, the daughter of a good friend of mine. 2009 and her 1st deer, yep with a .223 and cheap, steel cased HP rounds at about 60yds. 1 shot, 1 kill.