Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

I know of one so far, let's see if more show up.

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Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

Postby pitted bore » Tue Nov 23, 2010 6:16 pm

I'm starting a new thread for answering dogsniper's questions about building a bolt 450B. They're good questions that deserve not to be lost in the earlier picture thread where he posted them.

dogsniper wrote:I am ramping up to build a 450b Bolt Action myself. Seeing that it HAS been done by at least one member here, I do have some questions. I have located a barrel blank with a 1:20 twist. I see where it is advised to stay away from the 1:16, with the 1:20 be sufficient? Also, I plan on using a Stevens 200 (savage 10) action as I already have one chambered for a 22-250 and the bolt head is the same. This is where the other questions come in. Will I need to modify the magazine follower to feed the rounds correctly? I am hoping Pittbull will have some advice on this since he has pictures of the rifle he already built. Also, if it would make things "easier" I would be willing to use a long action rifle if that will allow the cartridge to free itself from the magazine without binding trying to feed into the barrel. I have already contacted Manson Reamers and that is taken care of...just want to have all of the important stuff covered before I invest a bunch of money only to find out I didn't start with the right stuff! Thanks All!


dogsniper-
Welcome to the forum, and I hope your project goes well. If you've already committed to having Manson grind your reamer, then you are really serious about this and are not just engaging in wishful thinking.

You're approaching the project from the proper perspective of "let's build a 450B bolt rifle". Mine was converted from a couple other projects, and finally emerged as a 450B.

About your questions:

I don't think a 1-turn-in-20-inches barrel will give you any problems with twist rate. The barrels that come with the AR-15 uppers have a 1:24" twist rate, and there have been no reported difficulties with stabilizing some pretty long bullets. Rough calculations indicate your twist rate should be able to stabilize a bullet more than an inch long even at sub-sonic velocities.

You will not have any practical worries about the twist rate being too fast. As reported in the 450B reloading forum, I tried really hard to get a light cheaply-made bullet to self-destruct by spinning it too fast with high velocity. I wasn't successful, and some other forum members thought that a muzzle velocity of 6500 fps would be necessary for a blow up.

I can't make any predictions about ability of a Savage action to feed the 450B rounds, either from a long magazine box or a short one. Here are some disorganized thoughts.

My 1903 Springfield is set up for 30-06 cartridges. I haven't modified it at all. If I want to feed cartridges from the magazine I have to take some care in loading, compared to just stuffing in 06 rounds as in my unmodified Springfield rifles. With 1, 2, or 3 cartridges down, 450B feeding from the mag is successful. The cartridges have to be firmly against the rear of the magazine, and the bolt has to be run forward smartly. Otherwise the rounds will take a dive into the empty space between the noses of the bullets and the front of the magazine. My mag box is made for cartridges more than 50 percent longer than the 450B, so this is to be expected. The mag box could be reconstructed, but if the problem can't be solved with three down plus one in the chamber then another round or two would probably not help.

I cannot try the equivalent of a short box by placing a stack of cartridges at the front of the chamber. The geometry of the magazine spring won't hold a stack of cartridges level when they're place at the front.

Mag box modifications can be pricey if they are done properly, and a smith would have to spend a lot of expensive time with cutting and trying to make things work. I suppose the best way would be to start with rifle that has a magazine made for the 284 round. I don't know if Savage has ever made a rifle for that cartridge.

If your mag box is constructed to be the proper length for a 22-250, you might be all set. The 22-250 cartridge is 2.35 inches long, and the 450B is 2.25. But, you may be correct in thinking that in being pushed out of the magazine, the feeding angle of the thicker 450B might be wrong and cause jams in the short distance available. You might put some 450B cartridges in the mag before you unscrew the 22-250 barrel, and try feeding them with the bolt. They won't go into the chamber of course. However, this exercise might provide some indication of feeding success if the nose of the cartridge goes into the rear of the 22-250 chamber and the alignment of the cartridge body looks like it might work otherwise.

I suspect with the mag box of a long action, you'll be facing problems similar to mine.


Here's a couple of requests:

1) If you have other questions now or as you proceed, you might ask them in this thread. Others may try to do the same thing and will have the same questions and it might save them some time. Don't be bashful about sending me a PM either. I'll do my best to answer.

2) You might take some photos as you go along, and post them here. Again, the object is to help others following along later.

I hope this works out well for you.

--Bob
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Re: Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

Postby dogsniper » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:49 am

Thank you for the advice. I am kinda the "prototype" for myself and my hunting buddies. Basically, if I can get this to work...I will be building (well, having built) at least two others for my hunting friends. The good thing about that is that if it all works, and we do have a few more built, the guys are going to chip in their share of the cost on the reamer and go/no go gauges.
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Re: Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

Postby Al in Mi » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:00 am

I haven't seen a Stevens 200 first hand so just a thought here, but way back a long time ago, I rechambered a Mod 700 in a 300 Canadian (about .020 difference here and there to the 300 RUM today). I fabed a new single stack mag box which after 3-4 trial and error remakes, worked perfect :D . Shortly afterwards, Brownells started peddeling Wyatts mag box which would have saved a few headaches, and if I could've waited 4 more years, the 300 RUM would've cured all my headaches. :roll:
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Re: Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

Postby wildcatter » Sat Nov 27, 2010 12:06 am

Hey Doc, ever think about converting that rig of yours to shoot detachable M16 mags? I've done a bunch of Bolt guns in AR mags and gobs of M1 Garands to shoot M14 or BAR mags and they are all slick..t
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Re: Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

Postby pitted bore » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:01 am

wildcatter wrote:Hey Doc, ever think about converting that rig of yours to shoot detachable M16 mags? I've done a bunch of Bolt guns in AR mags and gobs of M1 Garands to shoot M14 or BAR mags and they are all slick..t

T-
(I guess this is an appropriate thread hijack. <grin>)

I've thought briefly about such a conversion. I'm certain that a functionally reliable conversion could be done because I followed some of your work on this a decade or so ago.

However, the current setup on the Springfield looks OK and it works for 3 down plus 1 in the chamber, so I'm not planning on messing with it further.

My next bolt rifle in this caliber will likely be built on a post-64 Win M70 push-field action. Would you anticipate any problems with an AR mag conversion with this action? How about dogsniper's Savage/Stevens action?

--Bob
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Re: Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

Postby wildcatter » Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:35 pm

Doc, I've got a soft spot for those Savages. If I were to get one, I'd get it in a tactical barreled (smaller in dia than the bull barrel size) 308 or 223 and grind out the barrel to the proper twist. You can get them with that super stock and trigger of theirs..t
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Re: Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

Postby dogsniper » Mon Nov 29, 2010 3:24 pm

Unfortunately the Savage/Stevens I have does not have the Accutrigger, but I have already put a laminated thumbhole Boyd's stock and glass bedded it. I would still need to open up the barrel channel to accept the new "much larger" diameter barrel but that is nothing, I could do that in a few hours with a rasp then some paper around a 1" dowel. Which kinda leads me to another question. I am searching to opinions here...and this could get me into trouble. With the .452 bore, I was thinking the SMALLEST diameter barrel I should use would be .875 at the muzzle. Am I thinking right here? Should I use a LARGER barrel than that, or could I even get away with a smaller diameter?

Another Random thought....this Stevens DOES have the center feed magazine. Something that Savage started doing with their Accutrigger models. Seems weird. THE ONLY difference between this rifle and the Savage with the accutrigger is the trigger itself. I have the longer stock bolt spacing of the accutrigger models, the center feed blind magazine, and the "round" reciever (you guys that know the difference between the old Savage 10 and the new round reciever models know what I am talking about) It seems that simply changing the trigger justifies a much higher price!
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Re: Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

Postby wildcatter » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:04 pm

The muzzle itself can be .680" (there isn't allot of pressure out way there), but as you go back toward the chamber, it must get thicker. If you start our with a one inch barrel, starting just in front of the action, and extend that 1" dia. out to say 3" from the action and then go to a straight taper to the muzzle dia. of .680", that looks good and is very safe, but it's not exactly the way to go if lighter weight is whats wanted and of course the taper to the muzzle, doesn't account for what you may want to do with a front sight. Are you trying to build a light weight? ..t
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Re: Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

Postby dogsniper » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:42 am

No, lightweight isn't really that important...I usually hunt with a 50 cal muzzleloader, so I am pretty used to a heavy rifle. I will scope it so front sights are unimportant. I did not realize I could get away with that small a diameter muzzle. I will honestly probably go with the "varmint" diameter, so I can have it fluted. That should leave me enough meat to have fluting done...I found that a stainless barrel with flutes, then flat black HIGH temp engine paint in the flutes gives an awesome look...kind of like Tikka used to do, and I think the Remington Sendero II used to have that...I know...none of this makes it work any better...but it sure will look good
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Re: Another Bolt Rifle under Construction

Postby dogsniper » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:48 am

Just a quick update on what Pac-Nor said about my rifle barrel. I questioned which contour I should use for this cartridge in a Savage action. They recommended the "SAVAGE VARMINT" contour.

Just thought I would put that out there so anyone else considering this would know. I think wildcatter probably knows FAR MORE about this caliber than anyone, but this was the barrel makers recommendation.

Hope it helps,
Shaun
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