Newbie AR pistol questions

T/C Encore in 450b anyone?

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Re: Newbie AR pistol questions

Postby ardenkent » Tue Dec 18, 2018 6:41 pm

Thanks for the corrections , cutting and pasting you know. I was trying be intelligent and i cant get the specs right.
Bmt85 wrote:
ardenkent wrote:Handguns are revolvers and pistols. Pistols are not revolvers. Handguns are made for one handed operation. A handgun cannot be fired from the shoulder. A handgun cannot have a buttstock.
Long Guns :
A rifle must have a buttstock and a barrel at least 18 inches long, any less and its a Short Barreled Rifle ( SBR ). 16"
A shotgun must have a buttstock and a barrel at least 18 inches long, any less and its a Short Barrelled Shotgun ( SBS ) aka sawed off.
SBS and SBS require special taxes and approvals under the National Firearms Act ( NFA ). SBR and SBS
You can make a firearm manufactured as a long gun rifle into a handgun by cutting but it may not be returned to the long gun configuration without ATF approval.
Unless it was designed to be convertible as a T/C Encore or Contender and depending on the ATF ruling in effect ARs.

If I take an AR rifle (16" barrel with a buttstock), remove the buttstock and chop the barrel down, that constitutes an SBR.
[color=#0000BF]
[color=#0000FF]I challenge this, an SBR has a buttstock.
[/color]

That goes for most rifles. If you take a rifle, remove the shoulder stock, put a pistol grip, and barrel is still over 16", then you should be good. Maybe not if your under 26", at that point, it could still constitute an SBR. I believe there are some exceptions, but it won't be with anything and everything. Also, a pistol can be converted to a rifle and then back to a pistol at anytime (as long as you don't make an NFA firearm in the process), without ATF permission.[/color]


ATF is silent on handgun barrel length; it is not specified in the statute.
They can be 2 inch or 18 inch. So the upper receiver is of no consequence relative to handgun definitions.

To be safe, so when ATF changes its mind again, start out with being 21 or older, the legal minimum age to buy something other than a long gun
and that your FFL sells to you on the 4473 as a handgun, frame or receiver and is either :
a ) a designated by the manufacturer as a handgun or " Pistol Only " lower receiver,
or
b) a frame or receiver only.
A virgin receiver whether it says pistol or not, can be transferred for a build. Also most dealers will only transfer as a "firearm", they won't specify pistol. You can still do build off of that. Just don't let it be transferred as a rifle. I heard you can still get it changed over, but then it's a process. Just document what's been done.

The ATF ruling is that once a manufacturer attaches a frame or receiver to a buttstock it is a long gun.


Just a little clarification.
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Re: Newbie AR pistol questions

Postby Bmt85 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:36 pm

Snip:
If I take an AR rifle (16" barrel with a buttstock), remove the buttstock and chop the barrel down, that constitutes an SBR.

I challenge this, an SBR has a buttstock.



If it starts life as a rifle, it can not become a pistol. Therefore, if you chop the barrel down, whether you have a buttstock on it or not, it is an SBR. If that wasn’t the case, people wouldn’t be starting builds with a virgin receiver.

A pistol can become become a rifle, and a rifle can become a pistol IF it was originally a pistol.

Gotta love gun laws, especially when states get involved. I can’t keep track of all of them.
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Re: Newbie AR pistol questions

Postby plant_one » Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:06 am

Bmt85 wrote:Yeah, I know all about states making there own laws, making things convoluted. Here in Michigan, we use to have to register anything that was under 30" in its shortest operable configuration. So, an AR with no stock and a 14.5" barrel, or an AK with a side folding stock, had to be registered as a Michigan pistol. Now the laws are a little more inline with the Fed's, but still a bit messed up. I have one AR pistol that was grandfathered in after the change, so one good thing is I can legally carry it concealed or drive around with it fully loaded, ready to go in my vehicle, with a CPL. Never plan to, but good to know.

.



you dont need to be grandfathered to carry an AR pistol under mi CPL rules - non-grandfathered pistols just has to qualify under the new (or current if you will) rules. which limits you to around a 10.5" barrel without going to a PDW type (extra short) buffer tube to stay under that 26" mark. assembled length under 26" OAL is the magic rule. any item that puts you over that length (adding a suppressor, etc) makes the pistol illegal to carry under MI CPL rules - even if said item is removable.


i have a non-grandfathered 9" AR pistol in 300 blk, comes in OAL of 25¼" with the QD flash hider on. 100% can be carried under CPL rules here - i do it all the time. its my "truck gun". i RI-60'ed (mi-pistol registry/sale form) it the day after i assembled it from a stripped receiver. just had to drop the paperwork off at the sheriff. I originally had a brace on it, but when the rules got squirly at the federal level - like 3 months after i build the damn thing :evil: :evil: - i took it off and traded the weight for an optic. the 26" rule means unfortunately i cant carry it with the suppressor attached as that puts me over the 26" assembled OAL mark.

my preferred method to shoot it is by putting the buffer tube against my cheek, just touching my earlobe, almost like you would take a cheek-weld on a rifle with a stock, but my head is straight up instead of leaning over to the side.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

couple legal basics that have already been covered but are good to rehash on regarding building an AR pistol

1) if it starts life as a rifle its stuck there. to LEGALLY build an ar-pistol you'll need one of three options

a) a lower that was purchased on the 4473 as a pistol.
b) a stripped lower that was purchased on the 4473 as an "other" and has never been assembled.
c) an 80% lower that has never been assembled.

there are no other options. there is absolutely no grey area here. those three qualifiers are the only 100% way you can guarantee you're legal to build one. period. end of discussion.

2) document it as a pistol ASAP and do it right. a lawyer is going to cost you no less than $5000 to put on retainer if you have to go to court. or you can spend less than 1% of that to build it right the first time and never worry. (i'll take option 2, thanks!) a $15 fleabay pistol buffer tube will do the job to cover that aspect. follow any state level registry laws (if they apply). its not worth "saving" a few $$ to build it with an old 6 position buffer tube unless you're going to machine it so that it cant accept a stock, ever. a pistol lower built with a 6 position buffer tube wrapped in para-cord (as an example) and a spare 6 position stock in the closet (or junk bin or wherever) = constructive intent and posession of an unlicensed NFA item. its not the 6 position buffer tube thats at issue - its your posession of the unused parts to add to it that can get you in trouble.

3)always have your lower built and documented before you assemble/purchase your ar-pistol upper. being in posession of a short barreled upper without a pistol lower and a functioning rifle lower/assembled rifle = in violation of NFA law as you now technically have a unregistered SBR. if they wanna be real crappy about it - being in posession of just a barrel shorter than 16" and not having a stamped SBR lower or a pistol lower and having a functioning AR rifle in the house can put you in the same spot. you MUST have a legal non-rifle lower to be in posession of a <16" barrel or upper if you have posession of a functioning ar-rifle.

*ASSEMBLY IS NOT THE LINE FOR CONSTRUCTIVE INTENT, MERE POSSESSION OF THE PARTS THAT CAN BE ASSEMBLED IS*


hth! :)
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Re: Newbie AR pistol questions

Postby Bmt85 » Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:28 am

Missed this reply, but you are correct. I forgot to state I can legally carry my 12.5” 450B with a cpl.
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