Barnes MZ bullets

[Caseknife]

Hi guys, I'm new to the 450 and this forum, but have been gleening a bunch of good info. I was just wondering if anyone has tried loading the different Barnes MZ bullets. Looking at the data their respective BC's are much better than the FTX and the XPB bullets. The 50 cal MZ bullets w/o the sabot are .451". Any thoughts?

[Hoot]

At the Barnes web page, the 250 and 300gr .451 MZ bullets have lower BCs than the Hornady FTX style of equivalent weight. I take BCs that bullet manufacturers claim with the same grain of salt as the velocity that ammunition manufacturers say their ammunition reaches. Looks like the Tipped MZ are more close to the FTX in BC.



Versus



and the Hornady FTX bullets are .452 which while only a mil wider, do have the potential for better neck tension and will ride the bore a little tighter.

Obviously, the FTX/SST are not lead free, which is required in some areas as well as nice when you don't enjoy eating lead fragments in your venison.

Everything's a compromise...

Hoot

[Caseknife]

Hoot, thanks for the reply. Your posts are great information and good reading. I was actually looking at the Spitfire TMZ and T-EZ, which are tipped, but still the 300 gr SST beats them and is probably half the price. Just wondering because I have a bunch of the Barnes in a box. I've loaded Barnes for years in all my bolt rifles, but have not loaded for either my 223 or 450 AR. Haven't shot my 450 yet as a matter of fact. Hope to sight it in today. What has been holding me back on reloading for the AR, probably is unfamilarity/timing issues. Your posts have boosted my confidence, thanks, Tom.

[Jim in Houston]

Before I would spend $1.50 and north on a bullet, I would have to see it get up, dance, and whistle dixie . Exactly what additional performance can you get from these bullets above and beyond the Hornady FTX that would make them worthwhile?

[Wicked Hunter]

I have loaded both the spitfire TMZ and TEZ 250gr bullets from Barnes. The TEZ grouped the best with around 38gr of lil-gun. Point of impact shifted slightly but groups were comparable to the FTX. As far as Barnes for the .223 it's hard to beat the 55gr TTSX. They will shoot .5" groups out of my Rock River 20" varminter all day long. My favorite powder for the 55gr pills is H322. This site gives alot of good reloading info for AR-15's in .223.http://accurateshooter.net/Downloads/sierra223ar.pdf Most people dont realize you have to load an AR hotter than a bolt gun because you are loosing some of you pressure to work the action. I was at max load according to my bottle of H322 and still wasnt getting good groups. Then i found Sierra's website. There starting load is what max load is for a bolt gun. Once i stepped it up a bit with the powder things came along nicely. I've got the 55gr TTSX running at about 2900 fps and grouping really well.

[Caseknife]

I just really like the Barnes for the 100% wt retention. I know that they are twice to three times as expensive, but once you get your load developed, it's not that bad. I've noticed much less meat/collateral damage with a bullet that stays together. BTW, I just shot my 450 for the first time, WOW, I wish my 223 was as accurate. Thanks for the load info.

[Hoot]

Yes, the Barnes seem to be good performers, though I haven't cracked the code on their really light TAC-XPs in this caliber. I for one get bothered when I'm eating my venison chili and discover something hard in it, that turns out to be a fragment of lead. Makes me wonder how many I didn't notice.

Lead is toxic. More so with less developed livers in children, but also in adults. I hand soldered for over 40 years and around 10 years ago developed peripheral neuropathy that is not due to diabetes. The immunologist determined that my body makes the wrong ratio of "helper" T-Cells to "hunter-killer" T-Cells. When the "Hunter-Killer" T-Cells can't find any invaders to attack, they attack me, or more exactly the nerves in my lower extremities to the point where I barely have any feeling below my calves other then the burning, electrical shocking you may have felt when you sat with your legs folded up beneath you, they went to sleep and woke up. The difference between that passing sensation and my condition is I'm stuck there in the constant waking up part. It is very miserable, distracting and mood souring experience, especially when it's bed time. Nothing we've tried works except narcotic pain killers taken prophylactically, which I'm stuck using the rest of my life. I don't like either the physical effect they have upon my system, though I've adapted over 10 years and even less the stigma of being lumped in with all the prescription pain killer junkies that seem to be so prevalent now.

That imbalance in my T-Cells can be caused by exposure to heavy metals like lead over a long period of time. While we'll never know if all those years hunkered over a smoldering soldering iron is the cause, I have no love for lead. Especially if it can be easily avoided.

That's a weird diatribe over lead in bullets, but it's not just some harmless heavy metal saddled with a bad rap. Does it stop me from reloading bullets with lead in them? No, the damage is done. It does make me adverse to eating it though. Will I stop hunting with bullets that have lead in them? No, I'm just a little more selective about shot placement than I used to be. And you thought I was hung up on tight groups because I'm just an anal twit. I'm hung up on tight groups besides being an anal twit.

Hoot

[Caseknife]

Hoot,
Had an epiphany while out mowing the lawn,I've had much better success with the TSX and TTSX bullets over the original X bullet. Much better accuracy, less copper fouling, and higher velocities all due to the banding grooves. The MZ bullets don't have them because of the sabots, so I think that I will keep them for the off chance that I will get drawn for another multi-season tag here in WA, and pop a bull with my muzzleloader. I think I'll try the 200 and 275 bullets built for the 460 Smith. I've been following your "Tighneck" thread, and before I order dies, I've got 45acp dies, but read somewhere that those didn't reduce the neck sufficiently, should I order a 45LC carbide sizer and the 450 die set with the taper crimp die. I use W296 for my 44 mag, haven't used LilGun, which would be preferable.

Usually on these forums all you get are a bunch of blowhards that hide behind their keyboard, this forum seems a bit different, you guys are dedicated!

[Hoot]

Hoot,
Had an epiphany while out mowing the lawn,I've had much better success with the TSX and TTSX bullets over the original X bullet. Much better accuracy, less copper fouling, and higher velocities all due to the banding grooves. The MZ bullets don't have them because of the sabots, so I think that I will keep them for the off chance that I will get drawn for another multi-season tag here in WA, and pop a bull with my muzzleloader. I think I'll try the 200 and 275 bullets built for the 460 Smith. I've been following your "Tighneck" thread, and before I order dies, I've got 45acp dies, but read somewhere that those didn't reduce the neck sufficiently, should I order a 45LC carbide sizer and the 450 die set with the taper crimp die. I use W296 for my 44 mag, haven't used LilGun, which would be preferable.

Usually on these forums all you get are a bunch of blowhards that hide behind their keyboard, this forum seems a bit different, you guys are dedicated!

Oh we (I) go off on a tirade from time to time, but it's a different age group here. Most of us have been around long enough to have already endured enough of life's aggravations that we can't escape. We don't find any entertainment value from adding or receiving any more aggravation from behind the keyboard. We occasionally give one another some good natured ribbing, but it's understood that such jocularity is at its best when metered out in small quantities and savored in between.

I used a .45 ACP dies to impart my TiteNeck constriction. I'm not sure if the .45 LC is less or more. I do know I don't load that caliber otherwise, so I'm not buying the die to find out the difference. What I have seen is that you have to pay close attention to how the case registers in the die as you run it up. I've had several that chose to tighten up on one side more than the other and lose concentricity. I'd guess that is due to the case wall perhaps being a little thinner on one side than the other, or the temper is different. My solution and I do this as well when I just normally resize my brass, but I run the case up a like a third of the way, withdrawal the ram a bit, give the case a spin, run it up the next third, withdrawal and give it a last spin and run it all the way up. Sounds tedious, but it's more like bump bump bump done. That method has reduced the tendency for the case to swage down more on one side than the other. Even when that doesn't cut it, more often than not, when the bullet is seated, that softer/thinner side expands to allow the bullet in more than the other side and it all evens out. Again I stress, that happens about one in 15 cases, when doing the TiteNeck drill.

As for powders. I have only recently begun to play with W296 myself, having been pleased with how well Lil Gun performs and across many bullet weights. It is IMHO, the best powder for this caliber and if one was limited to just one powder, Lil Gun would fill that role. W296, while being a touch slower in a good way for the heavier bullets, has so far not delivered as tight of groups as Lil Gun for me. That certainly could just be me not happening upon the right charge for the bullets I've tried with it, but I doubt it. Either that, or Lil Gun is very forgiving by comparison. I will still pursue W296, but not indefinitely if it doesn't start impressing me soon. The stuff is a lot finer than Lil Gun and seems to get into the cracks in my Lyman 1200 DPS. AA1680 is also fine that way, but a horse of a totally different color in terms of the pressure and length of barrel it wants to see. I suspect it would be happier with really heavy .458 bullets that have been down-sized to .452. Unfortunately with really heavy bullets, a conundrum occurs where the bullet eats up more of the case's powder capacity in order to fit in the magazine and AA1680 maxes out on available remaining case space before it maxes out on pressure/velocity.I'll never need that severe a bullet weight for what I hunt, so it's starting to take me being really desperate for something to do to even go back and give it another try.

Hoot

[commander faschisto]

Caseknife...if somebody hasn't done so already: Welcome to our electronic campfire here! You'll find this is a whole different breed of cat on this forum. We're here to share info on the 450b and help each other out in that regard, not to be doing package checks from behind the keyboard, as you said. There is a truckload of information available here on the 450b, and if you can't find something you need, just ask. One of the local gurus will be along to help shortly. We all try to treat each other with respect, and provide the occasional dumb joke too.

You'll find the 450b makes a whole lot of other rifles into "safe queens"...and its all Wildcatter's fault!