midway blems

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Wow.... Dude! You've been Peeking at my drawing board! I work for one of the larger water municipalities in Texas and I've been considering this design as an alternative cuz I don't drink that much milk either.

[Hoot]

Zog Jealous!

Must see video.

Still Jealous!

I did do a blue tip into milk jugs last Saturday when I was at the range doing the Ultimate Neck Tension exercise in futility. Mine made it only to 4 jugs, unlike the 250 FTX which made 5 (go figure) the bullet while holding onto the jacket as best it could, really deformed and shed a good portion of the petal.

Like Dawg, I also toyed with adapting something like that. In my case I was considering a length of smaller drainage culvert, but wasn't sure how to cap it with a membrane thin enough to pass the bullet with minimal distortion, but strong enough to hold the lateral weight of the water back. Then there was how to retain it over the ends. We have 8 inch by 36" aluminum cylinders at work, but I didn't think they were deep enough and was not sure how the aluminum would stand up to the shock wave.

There's a scrap yard west of me about 10 miles that has a lot of light industry and large agricultural scrap. I should go poke around there. The biggest allure is the ease of transport, setup and knock down. We're not supposed to do experiments like that at the range and being a Board Member and Coordinator of the Rifle Range,I'm supposed to set a good example. So I sneak a jug setup in when no one is around and make sure I retrieve all the jetsam when I'm done. That pipe setup would work great.

Ok, I tried talking through this in a civilized fashion but, Zog still jealous! Zog must go take shower!

Great Job 1fullmag!

Hoot

[1fullmag]

Hoot
What did your blue tip look like after the water shot, was it similar to mine? How fast was you pushing yours? I'm thinking that at fifty yards it would have faired a lot better.
If I remember correctly when they make a bonded bullet I think they have to use near pure lead in order for it to bond to the copper jacket, so it's gonna be pretty soft compared to the mechanically bonded bullets like say a interlock where they can add antimony to harden things up. I think I read this, could have just been a dream so correct me if I'm wrong?
If you was gonna use alum I think it would have to be pretty thick
to hold up I wouldnt try anything under3/16" and you could for sure have no flat surfaces even then, that would be pushing it. On the rear of mine where it was resting on the ladder rung I found it was slightly dented in but the alum rung was not damaged. What ever you use you need to be able to weld a flange on one end and a 90 on the other. The vinyl material that I'm using is actually the strips they use to hang in the doorways so that fork trucks can drive thru them, it works pretty well after you shoot just pull it up past bullet hole and re clamp.
I'm thinking I may put some turf in the bottom of mine to hold bullet in place after shot so you can get a accurate measurement of penatration cause I don't actually know how much the water moves it around after it drops to the bottom.

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Coffee can Lids? I've seen and dealt with those long plastic sheets for doorways. Those may be a little thick for what we are doing. However, if you layer those up X 2 or 3 and place them strategically in that pipe with the water with a coffee can lid as the main seal, that will give us a good idea of how the bullets will perform when they hit the armour plate of a average piggy.

[1fullmag]

Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsFn8SX1 ... ata_player

I would be I'm the same boat with coffie lids cause I don't drink any.

[Hoot]

Hoot
What did your blue tip look like after the water shot, was it similar to mine? How fast was you pushing yours? I'm thinking that at fifty yards it would have faired a lot better.
If I remember correctly when they make a bonded bullet I think they have to use near pure lead in order for it to bond to the copper jacket, so it's gonna be pretty soft compared to the mechanically bonded bullets like say a interlock where they can add antimony to harden things up. I think I read this, could have just been a dream so correct me if I'm wrong?
If you was gonna use alum I think it would have to be pretty thick
to hold up I wouldnt try anything under3/16" and you could for sure have no flat surfaces even then, that would be pushing it. On the rear of mine where it was resting on the ladder rung I found it was slightly dented in but the alum rung was not damaged. What ever you use you need to be able to weld a flange on one end and a 90 on the other. The vinyl material that I'm using is actually the strips they use to hang in the doorways so that fork trucks can drive thru them, it works pretty well after you shoot just pull it up past bullet hole and re clamp.
I'm thinking I may put some turf in the bottom of mine to hold bullet in place after shot so you can get a accurate measurement of penatration cause I don't actually know how much the water moves it around after it drops to the bottom.

Before starting, thanks for the video. Leaving the rear as a pressure valve is a good idea, if for no other reason than to reduce the water kickback in your direction. Had I moved forward with some kind of cylinder, I was entertaining just zip tying a ziplock bag over the mouth. That or a cheap as possible kitchen trash bag, as long as the surface strength was enough to hold back the weight of the water it was restraining. Dawg's right about not wanting too thick a sheet as it will pre-expand the bullet somewhat, before it ever hits the water. Nevertheless, a very clever solution you were able to come up with. Beats going over to my rich brother-in-law's and shooting down into the diving end of his pool, off the board. I tried it with his stainless 500 S&W. Got soaked, but managed not to loose my balance and fall off the board.

Anyway, when I typed my post earlier this morning over coffee, I toyed with shooting an picture and uploading it with the reply, but was more interested in ramping up to face the work day. Mine went over the traps at 2231fps and the jugs were about 10 yards away. It was a disappointment in that I bought a still camera allegedly capable of also shooting video up to 240 frames per second slow motion for precisely these kind of experiments. Despite using the fastest SD card format available, I didn't realize the it's storing data like crazy and after you start recording, if you don't get back to bench and shoot pretty quick, the memory falls so far behind that after about 30 seconds it stops recording. Sat at the computer through four minutes of just the unshot jugs before it ended. I need an assistant.

I'm not sure on the pure lead aspect of bonded bullets. Plating does have it's stipulations. I thought I read they were plated, but perhaps it's a hot poured, fluxed process, or some kind of differential electronic potential process like powder coat. A little reading would go a long way on that question.

The aluminum cylinders were just an opportunity to scrounge up a free test bed. They certainly aren't 3/16 thick. Oh well. If I ever get the fever that bad, I'll look for some high pressure SS or similar piping. I really like the elbow idea. Great forethought.

I'd wager there a veritable maelstrom going inside that pipe once the bullet enters the water. I'm not sure you can approximate it's final resting point under those conditions. The appeal of the water jugs is their ubiquity. Everyone can get all they want on recycling day. One pass down two residential 4-block streets by where I work filled up the king cab on my F150 in 15 minutes time. Caps are tricky as not everyone leaves them on the bottles they throw out. They fortunately are recoverable and reusable unlike the jugs. If you're driving down residential streets, stopping at the foot of folks driveways real early in the morning, it's good to have a cover story handy. Mine is they're for my daughter's girl scout group bird feeder project. Some folks get pretty suspicious. Being in my Sheriff's uniform really helps, save for the occasional conspiracy theorist I run into.

Lest I forget, my blue tip shed what appeared to be a lot of weight. Again, I didn't weigh it, just the feel. I had intended to have another go at the blue tip and slow motion camera once I collect more jugs. Now that you've done the leg work, I'm not in such a hurry. I'm going to be tied up this weekend and the range is closed the next one for work.

Thanks again for you work toward the cause. We need more experimenters out there.

Hoot

[Jim in Houston]

Just wanted to say what a great idea and thanks for the video. I tend to agree that with holy H taking place inside that pipe, when the bullet his the water column, I don't think the final resting place of the bullet has much to tell. Weight retention and deformation are probably the best data that comes out. Trying to figure out some way to measure distance traveled in the pipe, but no luck.

BTW, the problem of partial expansion when it hits the vinyl sheet closing off the front shouldn't be much different than hitting the side of a (or multiple) milk jugs.

[Hoot]

...snip...
BTW, the problem of partial expansion when it hits the vinyl sheet closing off the front shouldn't be much different than hitting the side of a (or multiple) milk jugs.

What's funny with the jugs is the difference between having them full of cold versus hot water. Contrary to what I expected, the bullets travel further in the ones with cold water, all else being equal. Seems like the plastic is more brittle when cold and that somehow contributes to the ease of punching through two sides per jug up through the last one.

Hoot

[1fullmag]

Yeah I'm thinking the 1/16" thick soft Vinyl is not a issue, I compare it to skin, and at the speed that the Bullet is traveling I don't know if that vinyl skin is any harder than the water?

[wildcatter]

1FM,

Good go old man!

What comes from this may result in a standard, for all. I disagree that the distance the bullet travels wont tell you much. I'm thinking that your carpet idea or what ever, used to catch the bullet debris, if measured could be useful and the relative comparisons of bullet construction should be quite instructive..

..t