.45 hornady HAP

[lungingturtle2]

Has anyone loaded the hornady 230 gr. .45 HAP bullets and tested for accuracy and expansion? These bullets are XTP's that have the folds and cannelure for expansion and terminal performance removed. Should permit greater accuracy without blowing up at .450 bushmaster higher velocities.

[Hoot]

Sounds to me like you have found a perfect opportunity for a range experiment and write-up. Treat them like any other 230gr recipe. Don't seat them less than half caliber or below the ogive and establish a baseline using the standard taper crimp. Despite being a big fan of loading as close as possible to the lands, we are not afforded that opportunity with the long leade this chamber has. There are still some accurate load combos that can be achieved with a healthy jump to the lands with each bullet. Again, finding them is the fun part of this endeavor.

Quickload says that bullet is .679 long, so you can't load it to 2.26 COL and keep half caliber of bullet in the case. That's pretty common with hollow points. Without the ballistic tip, they're pretty short. Seated at 2.05 COL puts .325 worth of bullet in the case for good neck tension in a .451 bullet and the mouth is still below the shoulder. Start out at 38gr of Lil Gun (predicted 2250fps) and walk it up from there for best group without pressure signs.



If you want my Excel template, I'd be happy to email it to you as an attachment, not that you can't work up your own.

Hoot

[lungingturtle2]

Thanks Hoot, it will be down the road a bit as I haven't even purchased them yet. It's still hot here so I haven't been shooting much. Went to the range yesterday and had to shoot in a crowd, took a 20 min. wait just to pull targets and go home. I always try to shoot when the range isn't busy, guess i'm a little anti-social. Thanks again for the heads up on the procedure.

[Hoot]

Thanks Hoot, it will be down the road a bit as I haven't even purchased them yet. It's still hot here so I haven't been shooting much. Went to the range yesterday and had to shoot in a crowd, took a 20 min. wait just to pull targets and go home. I always try to shoot when the range isn't busy, guess i'm a little anti-social. Thanks again for the heads up on the procedure.

You're not alone. I try to go to the range as early as possible, before the "ham and egg'ers" get there. I'm not anti-social. I just don't like A) Waiting, B) Distractions C) It gets hot.

To be honest, there are plenty of affordable bullets besides the HAP. The Hornady Mag version of their XTP line are very tough bullets. I for one like the cannelure they have as it provides a better purchase for the taper crimp to bite into. The only thing better for an effective taper crimp are the Barnes XPB bullets with their driving band grooves, but they are costly. It looks like C.O.P. will start selling them minus the Barnes name soon for half of Barnes' price through Midway. They already sell the OEM version of the Barnes TAC-XP. Might make them a little more affordable. The Barnes 200 and 275gr XPB fly like a dream. I use the 200s for white tail hunting.

Ponder this: No one would think twice about the lethality of a 200gr bullet from a 30-06, but the 450B shoots 200gr bullets with their larger .452 frontal area, as fast, if not faster than a 30-06 will shoot 200gr .308 frontal area bullets. That's plenty fine for anything on four legs on this continent. I don't know why 450b fans don't get that and insist upon shooting big, lethargic bullets. Totally eludes me...

Hoot

[wildcatter]

Thanks Hoot, it will be down the road a bit as I haven't even purchased them yet. It's still hot here so I haven't been shooting much. Went to the range yesterday and had to shoot in a crowd, took a 20 min. wait just to pull targets and go home. I always try to shoot when the range isn't busy, guess i'm a little anti-social. Thanks again for the heads up on the procedure.

You're not alone. I try to go to the range as early as possible, before the "ham and egg'ers" get there. I'm not anti-social. I just don't like A) Waiting, B) Distractions C) It gets hot.

To be honest, there are plenty of affordable bullets besides the HAP. The Hornady Mag version of their XTP line are very tough bullets. I for one like the cannelure they have as it provides a better purchase for the taper crimp to bite into. The only thing better for an effective taper crimp are the Barnes XPB bullets with their driving band grooves, but they are costly. It looks like C.O.P. will start selling them minus the Barnes name soon for half of Barnes' price through Midway. They already sell the OEM version of the Barnes TAC-XP. Might make them a little more affordable. The Barnes 200 and 275gr XPB fly like a dream. I use the 200s for white tail hunting.

Ponder this: No one would think twice about the lethality of a 200gr bullet from a 30-06, but the 450B shoots 200gr bullets with their larger .452 frontal area, as fast, if not faster than a 30-06 will shoot 200gr .308 frontal area bullets. That's plenty fine for anything on four legs on this continent. I don't know why 450b fans don't get that and insist upon shooting big, lethargic bullets. Totally eludes me...

Hoot

You can Ponder that example using the 300win mag, 338win mag, and even the 375H&H. The 450b "Out-Kills" them all. It may not fly quite up to some of those others, but then again, all I require is to know the Range, the scope adjustments will handle the rest and my knife.

So, I guess the real answer is "Because I Can" ??

I have a hard time getting away from the 230gr FMJ's, they are cheap and in the Flat-Point, kills everything on the Planet, with Deadly Aplomb.

But when Godzilla, swims up the Mississippi, into Minnesota and your back yard, you may want those 325gr Barnes Busters!!

The reality is, I tend to agree with you. But it shore is nice having all the choices we have!! For instance, I just did a quick Talley at MidWay and they have the following bullet choices.

129; 458's
185; .452's
83; .451's
397 Bullets TOTAL that we can use.

23ea .500" 50cal bullets, OOO-AHHH

AND, DON'T let the Nay-Sayers on the other channels say, they have more bullet choices than we do (especially when compared to the .458").

Ya think the Gunny is going to like the .458" 325gr Hornady FTX's (#45015), I just easily (as in "Simply"), swagged down to .4515", for the 450 LM project??

..t

[Texas Sheepdawg]

The HAP Bullet by Hornady is one of the bullets on my To Test List. I'm so back logged on loads its silly. We've been suffering daytime temps of 101-106 for the past week. Fence is on hold and just too busy with other stuff. I would love to do a water shot with that HAP bullet. Maybe soon.

[pitted bore]

... The only thing better for an effective taper crimp are the Barnes XPB bullets with their driving band grooves, but they are costly. It looks like C.O.P. will start selling them minus the Barnes name soon for half of Barnes' price through Midway. They already sell the OEM version of the Barnes TAC-XP. Might make them a little more affordable. ...

Hoot-
The C.O.P. bullets are a recent name for the General Bullet Company's all-copper bullets I played with last year. They differ from the Barnes bullets. Midway's listing for the C.O.P. bullets currently describes them as being made by General Bullet: Link to Midway listing

The Barnes and COP/General bullets behave differently on impact, and their ballistic coefficients differ.Here's the thread with photos that show the structural difference: Testing another 160: Need for Speed Part D
--Bob

[Hoot]

... The only thing better for an effective taper crimp are the Barnes XPB bullets with their driving band grooves, but they are costly. It looks like C.O.P. will start selling them minus the Barnes name soon for half of Barnes' price through Midway. They already sell the OEM version of the Barnes TAC-XP. Might make them a little more affordable. ...

Hoot-
The C.O.P. bullets are a recent name for the General Bullet Company's all-copper bullets I played with last year. They differ from the Barnes bullets. Midway's listing for the C.O.P. bullets currently describes them as being made by General Bullet: Link to Midway listing

The Barnes and COP/General bullets behave differently on impact, and their ballistic coefficients differ.Here's the thread with photos that show the structural difference: Testing another 160: Need for Speed Part D
--Bob

Wow Bob! I forgot that excellent experiment series you did last year. While COP may not be rebranded Barnes, they sure appear to be close copies on the outside. What's the old saying? "Imitation is the Sincerest Form of Flattery. The COP XPB clones shown on theirs and Midway's web pages look so similar, I'd expect a lawsuit from Barnes. I wonder if that's why the holdup on them? The XPB lookalikes have been listed on the COP site for over a year, but not available, much like Midway's infamous "Coming Soon". My gut feeling is COP copied Barnes physical layout on the exterior, but perhaps changed the copper hardness treatment and implemented what COP believes is a better hollow point architecture.

I have a draft saved here of a Range Report I penned back in May for the 160 and 185 COPS. I was so unimpressed with their narrowness, which I measured on par with yours (.449-.450) that I dropped the report due to believing that they were unacceptable for our purpose, where with powders slower (Alliant 2400 & LilGun) than what you used, they lacked the chamber and bore pressure characteristic we need in our shorter 16 and 20 inch barrels.

Here's the 160 vs the 185gr


Interestingly, I got groups at 100 yards quite similar to yours, albeit at lower velocities. 48gr of LG kicked the 160s up to 2650 avg. The 2400 experiment was where I experienced the squib mess. I used a cooler primer with the 2400 and unlike with LG and a hot primer, velocities were way below what QL predicted. So the 2400 test was marked "Re-test". The 185gr COPs shot better and behaved much better with 42gr of LilGun at 2500fps avg. Here's a 3-shot group at 100 yds:





I suppose I should finish my retest of them with 2400 and a hotter primer this time, but I am nonplussed by their diameters.

Hoot

Sorry for once again sending another thread off on a tangent...

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Interestingly, I got groups at 100 yards quite similar to yours, albeit at lower velocities. 48gr of LG kicked the 160s up to 2650 avg. The 2400 experiment was where I experienced the squib mess. I used a cooler primer with the 2400 and unlike with LG and a hot primer, velocities were way below what QL predicted. So the 2400 test was marked "Re-test". The 185gr COPs shot better and behaved much better with 42gr of LilGun at 2500fps avg. Here's a 3-shot group at 100 yds:

Hoot, whenever I have used 2400 powder in my 357 Mag, every load I've found from 158-180 grain bullets using 2400, they STRESS the use of a magnum primer. (CCI 550s). When I tried the standard CCI 500 primers, it was NOT GOOD. And that was using just 11.0-15.0 grains of powder. Trying to light 35+ grains without a magnum primer is just a little, well, creepy. Maybe a retest with a true magnum primer is needed.

[Hoot]

Thanks for the tip. What was odd and what drove me to use BR4s was the great success I had with them and 200 gr FTXs. That and at the time, a lack of primers on the market. Now, I have all kinds to choose from. I will revisit my experiment.

Hoot