I'm now a believer in heavy crimping

[TacoTaco]

Funny you mentioned that about the 45/70. Just saw this in the latest American Rifleman:

....and that's with an 18.5" bbl. We're beating that using a 50gr heavier bullet and 2.5" less bbl. And the icing on the cake is that the .450 groups better. Man, I love this cartridge!

Hoot-- I put the mic on the 350's. They are all at .914 +/-.001 I'd really be interested in what QL has to say. If you don't mind, could you see what it has to say about the 325gr FTXs? They're averaging about 1.10 +/-.005. (The flex tip makes consistent measurements difficult, and it appears that some of the tips may get deformed by the swaging process)

Wildcatter: You touched on a subject I was curious about. With these heavy crimps, how often should I be annealing? Every time? Every other? I don't care if it's every single time, if it helps. It really doesn't add much more time in the grand scheme of things. Oh, and I may have misled you guys: The virgin brass was being used with the 300 XTPs, not the 350's. For the 350's I was using 7X fired brass that was annealed prior to loading.

I'm definitely going to be marking my case bases. That's a good tip for finding pressure signs. As for 2100fps....we'll see if I try to go that high. I like pushing the boundaries, but I know the limits of my skill set. Perhaps I'll try it, but it'll be once I feel that I've learned enough to really push the limit. For now, I'm going to play it on the (slightly) more conservative side.

Out in my neck 'O the woods, I'll be using the 350's on Roosevelt Elk, so 4-5" at 300 yds is more than enough to hit the vitals!!!

[gunnut]

Not apples for apples. but, I'm getting 5 loads with the 450LM brass before I noticed spring back and annealed again. I'm up to 10 loads on the orginal 100 cases. Their dropping like flies now for various reasons. loose primer pockets, cracks at case mouth, inside groove just above the case head, warped rims. Down to 50. This is Winchester 452-284 brass that has been thoroughly abused finding the upper limits.
"Your results may vary"

[Hoot]

...snip...

Hoot-- I put the mic on the 350's. They are all at .914 +/-.001 I'd really be interested in what QL has to say. If you don't mind, could you see what it has to say about the 325gr FTXs? They're averaging about 1.10 +/-.005. (The flex tip makes consistent measurements difficult, and it appears that some of the tips may get deformed by the swaging process)...snip...

All I can tell you is max case capacity for them as swaged narrower bullets are not treated as real bullets in QL. In the case of the 350s being .914, the max charge drops slightly to 45.5gr of LG.

The 325 FTX with their worse case scenario of 1.15 drop to 36gr and at 1.05 to 40gr of LG.

As always, start low and workup.

Hoot

[wildcatter]

...snip...

Hoot-- I put the mic on the 350's. They are all at .914 +/-.001 I'd really be interested in what QL has to say. If you don't mind, could you see what it has to say about the 325gr FTXs? They're averaging about 1.10 +/-.005. (The flex tip makes consistent measurements difficult, and it appears that some of the tips may get deformed by the swaging process)...snip...

All I can tell you is max case capacity for them as swaged narrower bullets are not treated as real bullets in QL. In the case of the 350s being .914, the max charge drops slightly to 45.5gr of LG.

The 325 FTX with their worse case scenario of 1.15 drop to 36gr and at 1.05 to 40gr of LG.

As always, start low and workup.

Hoot

If ya can, run the numbers for 1680, thx..

..t

[wildcatter]

As far as annealing goes, when you start to experience spring-back, it has already been time to anneal. The Gunny has a pretty good read on such matters, but you may have to do it more often. Let the brass do the talking..

..t

[Siringo]

...snip...

Hoot-- I put the mic on the 350's. They are all at .914 +/-.001 I'd really be interested in what QL has to say. If you don't mind, could you see what it has to say about the 325gr FTXs? They're averaging about 1.10 +/-.005. (The flex tip makes consistent measurements difficult, and it appears that some of the tips may get deformed by the swaging process)...snip...

All I can tell you is max case capacity for them as swaged narrower bullets are not treated as real bullets in QL. In the case of the 350s being .914, the max charge drops slightly to 45.5gr of LG.

The 325 FTX with their worse case scenario of 1.15 drop to 36gr and at 1.05 to 40gr of LG.

As always, start low and workup.

Hoot

There is a thread somewhere that I worked this up to 29 grains of LG and then backed off. I was getting rim bending and swipes. The charges listed here are scary. Sure wish Wildcatter had his pressure equipment up and running. Never-the-less, I got the speed to 1800 fps, which incidentally is the same velocity I get with this leverevolution load for the 45-70 from Hornady, shot out of my '86 with a 20 inch barrel. The accuracy was not up to par and I ceased any further development. Same applies to the 400's, a faster twist would be desirable, 1/18 for instance, not the 1/24 bushmaster.

By the way, those 325's are a bugger to size. Just like the Speer 400's. They have a tough jacket. Most of the 300's size easy because they are designed to open up a low velocity.

[wildcatter]

Two things Siringo, TT is not using LG and if he were, that would be the contributing pressure factors, you were experiencing. He is however using aa-1680, which drives down the pressures and drives up the speed, all at the same time. Now, 1680, is not going to do that for the lighter bullets and the lighter bullets really like LG and like burn rate powders.

The other thing is about those buggers vs sizing. My thought is, maybe you aren't using a better technique?

I just sized a ton of those 325gr/458's to .4515". I easily did this, using spray Lanolin. Imperial Sizing Wax and liquid lanolin are the ticket to sizing, way-way better than any other lube I've tried, hands down better. Lanolin & Imp Sz Wax "are" the tricks. If you want to size a bunch like I did, then lubing each bullet individuality gets tiresome. So here, one can use a cookie sheet and spray lanolin (I bought some from Dillon), to coat a gob of bullets, cases, the kids, all at once. Your going to need to let the Alcohol evaporate off, for several minutes. Then using a good O press, and cheater-pipe (I use a 3', 2 inch pipe over the ram handle), make the bullet go all the way through the sizing portion of the die (you can do that in one stroke, with a cheater pipe or just start the die into the press, say three revolutions, run the ram, then screwing the die in say 2 turns, ram it again, keep this up until the bullet actually releases for the sizing area, you can tell when this happens, but a good way is that you see the point of the bullet fall , slightly, back into the die, when the ram is lowered. Do this method, when you don't want to use a pipe). The bullet will release, from the sizing area, about half way through the die. If you don't let the bullet release and use the next bullet to push the first bullet through the sizing area, the points are going to deform.

There are some other ways to do this and I know you're incorporating some of them. This is prolly a good time to discuss some other working methods. But in any event, I can not over encourage the use of Liquid & or Spray Lanolin or Imperial Sizing Wax (Hornady just came out with their spin on ISW, the only difference is that it's colored red)!!

Sizing these heavy bullets, using the slower pistol powders, or the fastest rifle powders (AA-1680 type burn rates) and using a HEAVY Crimp (the gunny is using three ((he may be back to using two, the LSC and Taper, but a TNT might also help)) on the LM and look at his success), is the ticket too virtually, existential success or as TT has said, he is a believer in heavy crimps!!

..t

[Hoot]

...snip...

Hoot-- I put the mic on the 350's. They are all at .914 +/-.001 I'd really be interested in what QL has to say. If you don't mind, could you see what it has to say about the 325gr FTXs? They're averaging about 1.10 +/-.005. (The flex tip makes consistent measurements difficult, and it appears that some of the tips may get deformed by the swaging process)...snip...

All I can tell you is max case capacity for them as swaged narrower bullets are not treated as real bullets in QL. In the case of the 350s being .914, the max charge drops slightly to 45.5gr of LG.

The 325 FTX with their worse case scenario of 1.15 drop to 36gr and at 1.05 to 40gr of LG.

As always, start low and workup.

Hoot

If ya can, run the numbers for 1680, thx..

..t

My Bad. I just noticed this and realized I said LG as in Lil Gun, when I meant AA1680. Had Lil Gun on my mind... So those numbers were for AA1680. Sorry for the confusion.

Hoot

[TacoTaco]

By the way, those 325's are a bugger to size. Just like the Speer 400's. They have a tough jacket. Most of the 300's size easy because they are designed to open up a low velocity.


I had the same issue with the 325's...surprisingly difficult. To be fair, I was trying to size them with Alox. After a few I switched to some RCBS lube, which helped a little. I have some liquid lanolin coming in from Amazon in the next couple of days. Hopefully that will put an end to my sore shoulder and overworked press.

[wildcatter]

By the way, those 325's are a bugger to size. Just like the Speer 400's. They have a tough jacket. Most of the 300's size easy because they are designed to open up a low velocity.


I had the same issue with the 325's...surprisingly difficult. To be fair, I was trying to size them with Alox. After a few I switched to some RCBS lube, which helped a little. I have some liquid lanolin coming in from Amazon in the next couple of days. Hopefully that will put an end to my sore shoulder and overworked press.

The sore shoulder will go away and you might want to try only sizing with the ram stroke near the end of its cycle, don't use the locking ring, the method will require you to keep adjusting the die down until the bullet releases from the sizing portion of the die. The sizing portion only runs for about half the length of the die, the other length is allot bigger in diameter, from the swage area. You've got to get the new bullet to leave the sizing area, or you'll push that bullet out with the point of the new bullet and thereby deforming the point, of the new bullet..

..t