What load do you guys want something big shot with?

[alaskabushmaster]

Fall is upon us gents, moose season is around the corner and also elk/bear in Idaho. What load would you guys like to see take down something big?

[kottke_35]

Your 300 grain speer load? We just like to see people harvesting game with or caliber! I'm going to try the 275xpb load this year on elk and/or deer. Do you have any Barnes 200gr xpb's? Hoot uses these on the MN whitetails, may be a good choice for some larger game too. Well constructed, good bullet, good frontal area and relativelyhigh speeds. Should smack the crap out of game animals.

B.

[commander faschisto]

Glad to see you're going to use the Barnes 275s...that should be a kick-butt load!

[Hoot]

...snip... Do you have any Barnes 200gr xpb's? Hoot uses these on the MN whitetails, may be a good choice for some larger game too. Well constructed, good bullet, good frontal area and relatively high speeds. Should smack the crap out of game animals.

B.

+1

I'm sure folks are tiring of hearing this, but who would dispute the stopping power of a .30-06 pushing a 200gr bullet against big game?

The 450b easily propels a 200gr bullet as fast, if not faster than a .30-06. Now add to that the fact that a .452 bullet has over twice the frontal area of a .308 bullet and that translates to some serious improvement in smackdown!

Still unconvinced? Here's your sign:



Hoot

[wildcatter]

Fall is upon us gents, moose season is around the corner and also elk/bear in Idaho. What load would you guys like to see take down something big?

Yeah, this is a good question, your use of the 250gr xpb, was in my opinion, the wrong bullet for the Big Bear Mission, even though it worked. Lets face it, many elephant have succumbed to the lowly 22lr, but I for one think there are prolly better calibers and better bullets, within those calibers, that are just a tad better than a 22lr.

I say the bullet and load (though very important) are only components to the over-all problem.

Now, the problem arises, wherein we have such a huge selection of bullets. So, again, defining the mission, is vitally important, such questions as, what is meant by the word "Big" and what are the circumstances of the shot, are of great importance.

With 25yrs as a PH and some of those years Guiding in Alaska, I have a foot up to getting this conversation going, until we read better definitions from you, a.k.a.-the Mission Profile.

Knowing you, we're talking about, the big bears, moose, and caribou and ranges from 50 feet, to 500yds.

Let me say from the Get-Go, that any bullet you choose, sight-in for a real 200yds. More on that soon.

The Bears and Moose are similar, in that, they are big, thick and dangerous, but generally quite close in ranges, 100yds+-. Though I have shot many moose in the 300-500yd range. Keep in mind all these numbers are just Generalizations, not specifics.

Caribou are still big, in the 600lb+- area. I never shot a caribou that big, but I've seen many and the ranges, up in the 40-Mile country, (the Klondike) were 200-500 yards and their weight were in the 300lb area. The shots are Up Hill and Down Hill, with pretty good angles sometimes.

So, we need a bullet that can travel 500yds, accurately and reliably kill the animal at those ranges, bang-flop. The bullet must be quite capable at 50' and not be frangible, able to break large bone and still completely penetrate.

Ok, so 500 yds is a bit far, but go to Nikon's "SPOT-ON" and play with their BDC and the various scopes, you might find that hitting at 500yds, is no big deal (and it isn't), that is if you know the real range. Real-Range you say? Yes, if the target ranges at 500yds and the angle is great enough, the Point-of-Aim, might actually be under 300yds, if you were shooting horizontally. So then, we've introduced a couple of new Mission Profiles, knowing the Range and Slant Range.

I bought an Nikon Omega (1.5-5x), which gives me many Hold Over Reticules and their ranges, for the ballistics of the chosen bullet (You can plug-in your specific load and see the results and ranges for the reticules). I can print out the data, and paste them on the off-side area of the stock. If I know the range and can calculate for the slant range, I can, very well indeed, make 500yd shots. Those groups are not going to be like Hoots Grendel, no-way no-how, at those ranges, but our rig will kill, with deadly aplomb, I might add, at 500yds+-, where-as a Grendel might be Terminally Challenged.

For knowing the range and slant range calculations I have a Bushnell G-Force 1300 ARC Laser Rangefinder, which gives me both (no-one said this was going to be cheap. If you want cheap stay with the 22lr and it's capabilities, But then again, killing at these ranges, in Bang-Flop fashion, requires some amount of equipment and expense).

For most of our bullets, they are going subsonic before 500yds. When the bullet goes subsonic, it yaws and degrades accuracy, but, after it goes down below the sound barrier, it re-stabilizes. Let's just say that at ranges of 500-700yds, the groups will be Minute-of-Grizzle+-. Muzzle velocity is the partial cure for getting to 500yds., and careful reloading can be, again, a partial cure, but that supposes, you can safely acknowledge, your own reloading limits.

So, with knowing the real range, and I've chosen the correct bullet, I can now refer to my chart which is already on the off-side of my stock, I choose the correct reticule, adjust for the wind, make the shot and get my knife out, Right?

But then again, this is a bunch of Gobbley-Gook, because we have not yet solved for the correct bullet!

For my money, it's the 275gr Barnes, it preforms well under all the circumstances, as I've just laid out for both short and the longer ranges, has a good BC and will shoot well within a Minute of Caribou at 500yds, and best of all, it has the Terminal Ballistics to decide any issue at those ranges.

But, and this is a big BUT, if I knew that the ranges were going to be under 200yds, only, I may very well choose a different bullet. If I knew I was going to shoot the big bears and moose at well under 100yds, then another set of bullets come to mind. This sinerio might require a high speed 230grFMJ-FP or the 325gr Barnes Buster.

All-in-All, I'm sure this will get your Synapse's ah Pop'en.

You can do with less and less expense, but we have a near perfect All-Around Weapon/Cartridge/Caliber, now let's get the most out of it. I've been killing deer at 200yds and that's like falling off a log. I easily shoot targets at 500yds+-, and wonder why we are not applying today's Technology, to the Art of Killing, at those ranges (as long a we are within A minute of grizzle why not? I say, if I can hit my 9 inch paper plate, the only things I need to know is what is the furthest out I can do that and do I have the Terminal Ballistic Characteristics, to Bang-Flop?). After all, this is not a Sport, wherein either side could win, No! I am the only winner in this game and there is no-such-thing as cheating, when I apply my skill-set..

..t

[alaskabushmaster]

The range will most definitely be 200 yards or less. If I get out moose hunting it will be in fairly thick cover with a shot across small swamps possible. I don't think I'm going after another bear this fall as I don't think I can afford another 3k for rug or 5k for a full mount. I'm down in Idaho now and will have the chance for a nice bull elk here soon and some monster black bears that I didn't think existed in this part of the country. If I can find somebody that has some good lion hounds that would be fun too. I have a few hundred deep curls and barnes 275s. Ill load some up and do some accuracy testing. My deep curl load needs a little more kick in the ass and I can fix that! Ill find a good load on here for the 275s as I have never used them at this point. Anybody got a good load for the 275s PM me. Another odd thing to add to this thread does anybody know any ranchers in Idaho?> I need a dead cow......as fish and game doesn't approve of shooting dead game and will try and pin you with poaching...

[alaskabushmaster]

Ok going back and thinking about things this is going to be my hunt this fall. I have a private land elk hunt tag this year in Idaho and I want to use it. Ranges could go to 500 yards and will take some practice. The shot could very well be in a bean field way out there. Lets just plan for an elk at over 500lbs easy and a few 400lb blackies on the side. I haven't gotten a big elk yet in my life and I want to try. Lets streamline this convo for 200 yards plus loads and the best choice. I think that the barnes are up front in my book but there may be better choices. How would a solid chunk like the Buster carry down range? it might be time to practice!

[kottke_35]

I'll add this an aside because we've moved to longer ranges...

I tweaked your 300 grain deep curl load a bit per Hoots recommendations. I knocked the powder charge up to 37 grains of lil gun. I got some miled pressure signs and a rather large group. I came down to 36.5 grains and hit a sweet spot, 1 1/4 group, no pressure signs.

Good luck and keep us updated. There are several posts on loadings for the 275 xpb's. Hoot has done a great job working with those buggers!

B.

[Hoot]

The 275 Barnes XPB is identical to the 200 XPB in the front half. It just has more solid copper in the rear to achieve the additional weight. With a BC of .215, the 275 XPB, when fired at a safe velocity, from a non-custom, off the shelf 450 Bushmaster, will not expand beyond 100 yards when shot into multiple gallon jugs of water. It is certainly lethal much further out, but that lethality does not benefit from those copper knives deploying as it penetrates, based upon how it behaves in plastic milk jugs full of water as an expansion medium. The good news is, animals are not plastic milk jugs full of water. They have bones and in some cases, thick hides and/or cartilage plates to accelerate expansion. Also good news is that bullet will still have as much energy at 300 yards as a .44 magnum at the muzzle with the same weight bullet and plenty of PG's and PH's carry one on their hip. It does drop 4 feet at 300 yards and drifts 2 feet in a faint 10 mph cross wind, worse if it's blowing harder. So if you intend to ethically hunt at 300-500 yards using it, I recommend some intensive practice under those circumstances and in varying terrain, not just a shooting range, with the gun in a vise, before you go out.

I love my 450b but I do not believe the sun rises and sets because of it. I would not trade it even up for any other off the shelf AR15 caliber. I'm a man of modest means and if I had a once in a lifetime hunt for a trophy Elk at ranges which might include 300-500 yards, I wouldn't choose my 450b. IMHO, that mission does not play to it's strengths.

Hoot

[wildcatter]

Just a thought to keep in mind. The/Our 45 cal is, without expanding,is larger than any 30cal magnum can get, "After", expansion. Which is why I like the Flat Points. they will penetrate like no tomorrow, and the Flat Point, displaces more tissue than even a full house 338/375 can, while they are expanding.

..t