Need Help with Hornady 250G FTX Load

[Hoyt_Rocks]

Hello Gents,

First of all I would like to thank a lot of you for taking the time to post all your experience and load data on here. I have been lurking for quite some time and just now registered. I am an avid hunter here in the midwest and plan on hunting with my 450 bushy this year in Indiana. That said, I am fairly new to reloading but have successfully loaded 223 and 45 ACP in the past year. I am having trouble loading the 450B to at least obtain factory accuracy. My current load came from this site and it is as follows: 250G Hornady FTX, 38 grains LilGun, Hornady Brass (New), Rem 7.5 Primers, .476 tapper crimp at the mouth. I am also uniforming the primer pocket and deburring the mouth.

I have loaded 5 rounds with OAL at 2.255 and (5) rounds OAL at 2.240. Both loads at 100 yards do not even come close to factory accuracy. With the factory ammo, I am hitting MOA or Sub. With my reloads it averages 4-6" at 100yards. What can I do different? I am using the carbine version 450B. Thanks for any help in advance..

[Hoot]

Welcome aboard Hoyt and glad you have chosen to join our group of thumper fans.

There's got to be a logical explanation you are missing, though you seem to have payed attention to the correct details in your loading practice to not see such a radical behavior difference between the factory loads and your hand loads. Let look for subtleties. Do you hand loads feel the same when they shoot as the factory loads? IE, not a lot hotter or softer? Powder batches vary as well as environment, such as how hot it was or wasn't, how long each round sat in the hot chamber, soaking up ever greater heat than in the air, before you fired a shot. Yes it does matter with ball powders. Brass is a great thermal conductor. Did you measure the taper crimp degree as close as humanly possible to the mouth. not a tenth inch down from it. Did you use an accurate micrometer to measure it, not a less accurate caliper, despite the caliper being quicker to use? Were both accuracy events shot the same day as in did you feel like you were in the same "zone"?

Shooting ARs accurately was a lot trickier for me to master than bolt guns. Different challenges with presentation on the benchrest. Have you subsequently shot some more factory loads to make sure nothing shook loose in the scope and mounts between the time when you shot the factory rounds and your hand loads. Don't laugh, it's been know to happen.

The point being, it may not be your reloading at all. "Think outside the bun."

Hoot

[Hoot]

It just occurred to me that despite speaking about taper crimps countless times, I never explained how the crimp diameters I quote, are arrived at.

Simple technique and possibly unique to my approach. I tighten the micrometer on the bullet just beyond the mouth, just loose enough to allow the bullet to slide though the jaws. I slide the cartridge forward until I run into the lip of the mouth and progress halts. I then carefully, slowly open up the micrometer until the lip of the mouth passes reluctantly through the edge of the jaws and take my reading. That's what I refer to when I say the diameter of the taper crimp as measured at the mouth. If I try to slide the micrometer further down the case, I have to open it up more as the diameter of the case increases. Hence, if I took that reading as previously stated, 1/10 inch down from the mouth, it would measure different. That's not to say my way is the correct way as I've never seen a standard applied to where to measure for the sake of sharing results with others.

My micrometer is much more accurate than any of the calipers I own and sometimes it disagrees with some of them by as much as 1 to 1.5 mils. That's a huge difference WRT the taper crimp. I tested some Remington 450B Accutips and their accuracy and consistency was horses#%t. I re-crimped them using the above measuring process, and they went from 4 inch groups to just over 1 inch groups, so it is important to get the correct crimp diameter. If the crimps are too light you can see blown groups such as you experienced for several reasons. One being both an accuracy concern as well as a safety concern. That being the case where the bullet pulls out of the case a little when it is slammed into the chamber, like an inertial bullet puller. If you have any of you hand loads left, that haven't been chambered yet. Measure it's COL. Chamber it, remove and re-measure. Repeat and re-measure. If the COL is growing, so will your groups. So will your risk. It's near impossible to avoid any pull at all, but it will be exascerbated if the crimp is insufficient.

Hoot

[Hoyt_Rocks]

Thanks Hoot for the welcome and generous reply. After looking at my brass yesterday from my handloads and comparing them to the spent factory load brass I did notice burnt powder discoloration on the outside of the handload brass. More so than the factory brass. Could this mean bad crimp or not enough crimp? I can take a pic tonight when I get home if that would help. I measure the crimp with a set of calibers (Mitutoyo) as close to the mouth as possible, within .050" I would guess. Your measurement technique sounds more definitive than mine. I may try using a micrometer from work and load (5) more test rounds up. Thanks again for your help.

[Hoot]

Thanks Hoot for the welcome and generous reply. After looking at my brass yesterday from my handloads and comparing them to the spent factory load brass I did notice burnt powder discoloration on the outside of the handload brass. More so than the factory brass. Could this mean bad crimp or not enough crimp? I can take a pic tonight when I get home if that would help. I measure the crimp with a set of calibers (Mitutoyo) as close to the mouth as possible, within .050" I would guess. Your measurement technique sounds more definitive than mine. I may try using a micrometer from work and load (5) more test rounds up. Thanks again for your help.

I can't stress enough the fact that my process is just that. The way I do things. It is by no means the only way to get there.

WRT what we all refert to as "sooting" and most if not everyone here have seen their share. What it means is that as the round ignited, the chamber pressure did not rise quick enough, high enough, or both to expand the case tight enough against the chamber walls to totally seal it off from some gas leaking back past it. There is almost always a little sooting, but when it reaches down the case and sometimes puddles in the extraction groove, then that's probably not a good sign. It is frequently encountered from underloading a round, or using very light bullets, which go down the barrel too easily, not allowing the back pressure to build to a sufficient level. From my experience, the most common cause it too little powder, followed by using a powder that is too slow for the bullet weight you have and it's counterpart, using a bullet too light for the powder you have, then its a toss up between too cool a primer and too little neck tension. The latter being mainly but not limited to too little crimp. Since you are using the correct powder, bullet and primer combination, IMHO, that leaves the crimp as the main suspect. BTW, if you don't alredy know this. Do not use the expander die. You don't need it to start the bullets when seating and it robs some of the end neck tension.

Though it's a philosophically painful experiment, you can take one of your hand loads and a factory load. Put each in your inertial bullet puller and using as consistent a swing as possible, see how many smacks it takes to dislodge each one's bullet. My guess is your handload will dislodge with less smacks. If they are not different, then I'm at a loss to explain what you're experiencing.

Hoot

[Jeepejeep]

Welcome, you have come to the only place to wring the best out of your Thumper. I also handload and have followed the much more experienced guys here and have learned a lot. My handloads are just as accurate as factory stuff if not more so. I measure the crimp with digital calipers using the same method Hoot uses with his micrometer being extremely careful to measure AT the case mouth. Hoot, Sheepdog and Wildcatter have done more experimenting and research than anyone (I think) on this caliber so I read and pay attention to them not to say others here haven't contributed TONS to what I've learned. The guys here will do everything in their power to get your gun shooting properly, they are a great, dedicated bunch. Glad to have you here.
Jim

[B swift]

Welcome, you have come to the only place to wring the best out of your Thumper. I also handload and have followed the much more experienced guys here and have learned a lot. My handloads are just as accurate as factory stuff if not more so. I measure the crimp with digital calipers using the same method Hoot uses with his micrometer being extremely careful to measure AT the case mouth. Hoot, Sheepdog and Wildcatter have done more experimenting and research than anyone (I think) on this caliber so I read and pay attention to them not to say others here haven't contributed TONS to what I've learned. The guys here will do everything in their power to get your gun shooting properly, they are a great, dedicated bunch. Glad to have you here.
Jim

>+1

Welcome, welcome. A number of folks here go WAY above and beyond. I have never come across such a spectrum of knowledge and you certainly can't beat the hospitality!

[pitted bore]

... My current load came from this site and it is as follows: 250G Hornady FTX, 38 grains LilGun, Hornady Brass (New), Rem 7.5 Primers, .476 taper crimp at the mouth. I am also uniforming the primer pocket and deburring the mouth. I have loaded 5 rounds with OAL at 2.255 and (5) rounds OAL at 2.240.

Hoyt_Rock-

Others have offered some good advice. Here's another viewpoint:

You probably should start with Hornady's recommendations for reloading, rather than taking information off the internet. Hornady has a lot invested in the stuff they publish; their reputation and future sales depend on their getting things right. Internet information (including that given on this site) can be OK, but it needs to be evaluated against reliable published data and your own experience. If you have little experience, then the only backup is information known to be good.

For your particular load, you have started at 38 grains of Lil'Gun. Check Hornady's data. The max recommended is 37.9 grains with the 250-grain FTX bullet. While the 0.1 grain difference is not likely to be a problem, what seems very significant is that you decided to start at the very top end of the recommended loads. Do you have a basis for doing this, other than what you've read here? Most reliable reloading manuals state emphatically that you should start low and work up. (There are exceptions, but these are explained in the good manuals.)

Your load also starts at a COL longer than Hornady recommends. For this bullet, their listed COL is 2.225". Your loads are 2.255" and 2.240". Do you have good reason for deciding that Hornady was incorrect in their recommendation?

Experimentation is fine, but it needs to start from a known point of departure.

Do you have any measurements of velocity? With the FTX bullet and 38 grains of LG, you should be getting about 2200 fps from a 16" barrel. What did you obtain with your reloads? What velocities does the Hornady factory ammo show in your rifle?

If I'm off base here, the regular crew will be along shortly to clean it up.

Welcome, and be safe please.

--Bob

[Hoyt_Rocks]

Thanks again guys. Hoot, I am using the expander die but am not expanding very much. I will not use this on my next batch. I have been very careful in my practices and have many hours of research before attempting certain loads. I also have Hornady's original reloading data (thanks to this site) and did start at 37.9 grains. I really do trust some of the guys experience and information from this site. Especially Hoot and Wildcatter. I am usually very guarded and skeptical but when it comes to these guys they obviously have there chit together....Thanks for your thoughts and wanting to keep things safe....