Everything I know is wrong.

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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Hoot » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:25 pm

simpleman wrote:...snip...
How deep is your stab crimp in the cannelure?


.474 measured at the deepest point.

Go slow!

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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby simpleman » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:33 pm

Thanks Hoot.
Yes slow. I don't want to push the max just lean on it a bit. I am at 2314 FPS now at 39.5 gr.
I am at 40.5 for this weekend.
What are your grain steps when getting to this point?
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby bushmeister » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:55 pm

Texas Sheepdawg wrote:Or... As David Letterman used to say on stupid human tricks...
.

Reminds me of years ago when Dave was funny instead of political. In other words.. Don't be "Super Dave Osborn" when developing your loads..
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Hoot » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:39 pm

simpleman wrote:Thanks Hoot.
Yes slow. I don't want to push the max just lean on it a bit. I am at 2314 FPS now at 39.5 gr.
I am at 40.5 for this weekend.
What are your grain steps when getting to this point?



For this case capacity and energy content of say Lil Gun, 296 and H110, 1/2 grain steps seems like a reasonable compromise. Given the general lack of tight velocity results, I can not foresee usable data coming from lesser steps. Heck the velocities from half grain increments jump back and forth between steps as it is. Sometimes two steps. That can be improved upon by some miracle solution, yet to manifest, to get a better handle upon neck tension variability from apparently identical loadings. That challenge resides at the top of our collective ingenuity pool mandate. I really thought that Llindex cracked the code with his idea behind the titeneck model and that may yet rule if we can standardize a method for producing it consistently from round to round and from one reloading setup to another. That brass ring is still hanging out there.

IMHO, neck tension accomplished by stretching your bullet's way in, will exceed in terms of overall performance, that which can be accomplished by restoring it from from the outside, after the fact. That's how bottleneck cartridges do it and look at what they've achieved. We need a sizing die that employs different sized bushings that can be added or removed to achieve the precise degree of pre-tensioning of the neck area, much like the Redding S-Type dies do it, for each of our bullet choices, many of which sees to have their own unique O.D. If every bullet held tight tolerance at say .452, not .449 to .452 and all points in between, it would be a simple manner to fashion one fixed resizing die to achieve optimum tension. Exotic and sometimes excessive externally applied techniques after the fact are not the ideal solution, especially ones which can be adjusted in a number of infinitely different degrees from one setup to the next. that method allows too much "Kentucky Windage" from my reloading shop to the next guys. We need to be able to share results that can be precisely replicated from one person's method to the next. Otherwise, our efforts and results are anecdotal.

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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby simpleman » Thu Oct 04, 2012 3:55 pm

Hoot
Don't get to set on that bottom cannelure. I bought another box from Cabela's today. This box of 200 FTX bullets only has one cannelure. I contacted Hornady and they used the bottom cannelure to hold the bullet to put the top cannelure on. Hornady has changed their manufacturing process and no longer have two cannelures on the 200 FTX. I did not ask but I suppose it will be the same for the 225 FTX as well.
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby simpleman » Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:28 pm

simpleman wrote:Hoot
Don't get to set on that bottom cannelure. I bought another box from Cabela's today. This box of 200 FTX bullets only has one cannelure. I contacted Hornady and they used the bottom cannelure to hold the bullet to put the top cannelure on. Hornady has changed their manufacturing process and no longer have two cannelures on the 200 FTX. I did not ask but I suppose it will be the same for the 225 FTX as well.
Somebody always gotta burst somebody else's bubble.


Yep
looked at the 225s I have and one cannelure on them as well.
When I spoke with Hornady I mentioned loading them in the 450 BM. He said they're not designed for that. I said they work good in it. I wish I had ask why they say that.
Also wish they would design a 200ftx with that second cannelure about the middle of the flat surface of the bullet. That would put it right about where the stab crimp is applied.
As Hoot would say. IMHO a 200 grain 45 cal bullet has enough weight to take down about anything you want and with the speed you get out of them they shoot flat enough for 200 yard shots.
So who here has the most pull with Hornady to get some special bullets made for us to R&D?
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Hoot » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:53 pm

simpleman wrote:Hoot
Don't get to set on that bottom cannelure. I bought another box from Cabela's today. This box of 200 FTX bullets only has one cannelure. I contacted Hornady and they used the bottom cannelure to hold the bullet to put the top cannelure on. Hornady has changed their manufacturing process and no longer have two cannelures on the 200 FTX. I did not ask but I suppose it will be the same for the 225 FTX as well.
Somebody always gotta burst somebody else's bubble.


That reason that Hornady gave would make something approaching sense if they explained what they held onto to put the bottom cannelure on with. :roll:
I can understand that they represent a "vestigial tail" since no one usually uses the rear cannelure anyway. That is, except us odd folks.

It's not that big a deal. If in the future, we're stuck with only the front one, and either taper crimp into it or crimp into it with a modified FCD, it still provides good retention for Lil Gun. About 10% more wasted start pressure using 41gr Lil Gun than at 2.26, but certainly not a show stopper. If you want to get closer to the sweet zone, go with the 225 FTX. They sell boxes of 100 for about the same retail price as 50 of the 200 and 250 FTX, so it's a good deal as well. Same expansion in water jugs. Same weight retention. That's what I hunted with the first year out and I was not worried in the least. The 225s from my experience, group even better than the 200s and that's an added bonus. I'll admit, they don't look as svelte as the 200s and 250s due to a different ogive, but looks don't kill. Unless they come from my wife. ;)

One thing's for certain. I'm not going to use any more of my dual cannelure 200s for farting around. Besides, I bet there's plenty of New Old Stock sitting on shelves. The trick is to figure out what lot numbers represent the cutoff to only one cannelure. I'm guessing the recent blem sale of them at Midway probably represented the purge of the factory inventory, after which they produced ones with only the front. Just a guess. If as promised, Midway eventually starts carrying the COP knockoff of the Barnes 200 XPB, those will be no-brainers for deer hunting. If you think you get good retention crimping into the cannelure, it pales compared to what you get crimping into one of those driving band grooves.

As the weight goes up as in the 250s and above, the cannelure becomes less important anyway. That's why they don't have any.

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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby simpleman » Fri Oct 05, 2012 5:00 am

I looked at my 225s and they have only one cannelure as well.
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Handgunner » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:07 pm

Hello everyone. I had posted when I purchased a Ruger #1 in 450 Bushy with a 1in 10 twist. Got some great targets at 25 and again at 100 yards. Was going to try and use the 200FTX, thinking the 250 FTX was a little heavy for deer. Hoot Gave me starting loads and I loaded them but never got a chance to try them out. I wound up using the factory 250FTX. Here are some pics. Shot a 6pt second day of our season. He was a little more than quartered away at about 35yds. Per pictures the damage was significant on him. Went in just ahead of left hind quarter,through the paunch and part of the liver and the jacket lodged in the rib cage.
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Handgunner » Wed Dec 06, 2017 8:21 pm

Then on Nov. 25th I was fortunate to harvest this weird, very cool 10pt at 50yds? Shot him with the 250FTX right behind the right shoulder it then went through both lungs (which were in very small pieces) you would not recognize as lung then broke up and part of the bullet exited out of the left shoulder. Small hole in, small hole out. Both deer dropped in their tracks and never moved. The jackets are from the 6pt, nothing recovered from the 10pt. I just may stick with the 250FTX with this kind of performance. Some complain about pistol bullets out of a rifle. Not me! In the last 4 years here in Mi. The straight walled cases have been legal in the Southern Lower Peninsula. Previous years I have managed to take 3 bucks with my AR 450 and 2 this year with the Ruger #1 450!!!! NO TRACKING OR LOST GAME.
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