Everything I know is wrong.

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Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Hoot » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:21 pm

Just about the time I think I have it sussed, this caliber throws me a curve ball.

In the interest of refreshing my experience with reloading the Hornady 200gr FTX, I threw together some loads starting with Hoot conservative and QL approved, with the intention of working up from there, with a different twist. Instead of seating the bullets to 2.19 COL and driving an aggressive taper crimp into them, I seated them to 2.26, applied a light taper crimp and then a modest stab crimp to the rear cannelure.

Image

Holy Bejebers! :o

As soon as I touched off the fouling shot (43.5gr Lil Gun), I knew I wasn't in Kansas anymore. Everyone at the range went quiet and looked at me. I looked down at the chrony readout and it registered 2700fps exactly. I thought "Oh this is going to be ugly." After carefully inspecting the bolt, barrel extension and brass I couldn't believe my eyes. The rifle was fine. Out came the micrometer and calipers. The case head registered the same .0025-.0030 growth I got with my tame 40gr of Lil Gun and plain taper crimp (2375fps). The case length had shrunk a whopping .002 from before it was fired, which is atypical and there was no imprinting on the head. The primer looked nice and rounded just like when I seated it. "Ah, must be a chrony error." Back on station, I dialed in the scope and fired my other fouler. Almost as loud and 2615fps as the last of the Kroil dissipated. Whoa! Another tear down and inspection. Another A-OK.

Now I have an audience around me looking at the rounds and asking questions. I did what any adolescent would do in the face of peer pressure. I ran my first string of 5) 43.5gr loads as fast as I could regain my position in the bags and aim. All barked impressively. All cases looked similarly fine and I got a reasonable 5-shot, 100 yard group. The rifle certainly bucked and snorted more than usual and I could have held it tighter in hindsight.

Here's that 100 yard group. Not my best, but considering I've never shot a white tail further than 75 yards in the northwoods of MN, a perfectly acceptable group.

Image

The velocities had a wide span, no doubt from being on the excessive side, but there is no doubt that more bullet retention allows Lil Gun to perform far beyond what even Quickload could predict and left the cases no worse for wear and tear. The latter being the most surprising of all. I had two more runs of five that were half grain steps upward. Despite being loathe to pull down stab crimped rounds, because the crimp has no opportunity to iron out, that was my intention, much to the dismay of my audience. I panned though, saying that I had to go pick up the Mrs at the park-n-ride, which was at least, partly true.

I forgot to mention, the spent cases were entirely soot-free. That was not the case the last time I shot some of these 200s at lesser loads and lighter crimps. I will set the pull-down cases aside for another at-bat with lighter charges, but continuing with a similar crimp approach. Right now, while I encourage others to experiment with the stab crimp, don't repeat my choice of charge. There is much remaining to learn about the best balance between accuracy and power release as determined both by charge and crimp. As far as how the cases behaved, I feel like my ideas about cause and effect WRT this caliber, still remain a work in progress.

Hoot

P.S. I suspect we have at least a few more converts as several members inquired as to where they could get an upper like that. One wanted to know if mine was for sale. Image
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:32 pm

:lol:
I'M SORRY, But I can't help but giggle when I think of those poor souls at the range...Going home..Begging their wives to let them buy another rifle....
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Hoot » Tue Sep 25, 2012 8:46 pm

As I continue to preach, who would doubt the .30-06 as a tried and true deer killer?

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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Jeepejeep » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:18 pm

One word...DAAAMMMNN!
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby commander faschisto » Tue Sep 25, 2012 9:38 pm

Yeah, what jeepejeep said!... :shock: I think you're on to something there, Hootster...keep us updated.
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Wed Sep 26, 2012 2:31 am

I still maintain that the LeGendre Crimp is the key to getting LilGun cooking. Especially with my 230 grain FMJ projects. Once I started using my LeGendre Crimp and got my powder charges above 40.0 grains, the LilGun stopped sooting. YMMV.
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Hoot » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:22 am

Texas Sheepdawg wrote:I still maintain that the LeGendre Crimp is the key to getting LilGun cooking. Especially with my 230 grain FMJ projects. Once I started using my LeGendre Crimp and got my powder charges above 40.0 grains, the LilGun stopped sooting. YMMV.


I don't think there is or was any question as to the important role that bullet retentivity plays in getting a powder going before sending the bullet down the tube and not just Lil Gun. Side/Stab crimps have been around since before I was born. It is a means to an end. WCs adaptation of the Lee FCD to make a colletting tool to impart a side/stab crimp in an affordable way was pure genius. Far less expensive than the commercial ones employed by ammunition manufacturers that probably cost as much as one of our uppers, assuming they are not done with some kind of rolling tool, much like a tubing cutter.

The million dollar question WRT using additional bullet retention in any form, to stretch a powder's performance curve outside of it's sweet zone is, Where does the energy release reaction go from controlled to out of control? As in exceeding the design parameters of the case and chamber? That requires an investment in a pressure barrel, precise measuring equipment and laboratory conditions. With many spherical powders, potent, but safe loads developed at say 75 degrees can turn into demolition charges at 95 degrees. :(

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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:05 am

Yeah. And I'm still conflicted whether or not to crimp the 250 Shockwaves and deep curls that I have staged to test. My first batches won't be side crimped.
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby longnkrnch » Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:18 pm

I want to know more about this "side crimp" and how to achieve it. I'd like to add it to my repitroire some day.
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Hoot » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:37 pm

longnkrnch wrote:I want to know more about this "side crimp" and how to achieve it. I'd like to add it to my repitroire some day.


Here's the Link to the achieve part of the question. It is one of the "stickies" at the top of this sub-forum.

Side crimping or whatever you wish to call it is nothing more than driving the case wall into a ring around the circumference of the bullet as opposed to driving the case mouth into a ring around the circumference of the bullet using the taper crimp. Properly executed and especially when into a cannelure or driving band groove n the bullet, it can provide tension only dreamed of using the dimensionally limited taper crimp. Drawbacks (IMHO): It distorts a portion of the bullet on it's bearing surface. It scars your brass, usually for life, relegating them to a life of crime. Oops, I mean a life of side crimp service. If you really like sub-MOA groups, unlike the taper crimp, I've had a hard time achieving them with side crimps. For most hunting situations where the 450b is an appropriate caliber, it'll probably not matter. Look at the picture of the loaded round at the beginning of this thread and you'll get an idea of how the side crimp works. Somewhere buried in this sub-forum, back a couple of years, is some drawings of how it works, that are worth a thousand words. Getting folks to these vignettes of information get harder as every day goes by and the forum grows deeper in thread and post count. I'm supposed to be mining for them and linking them in my useful information sub-forum, but it takes time, time which I will have much more of come winter in MN. ;)

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