Everything I know is wrong.

Talk about your 450b reloading experience, ask questions, etc...

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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Hoot » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:43 pm

longnkrnch wrote:I want to know more about this "side crimp" and how to achieve it. I'd like to add it to my repitroire some day.


Here's the Link to the achieve part of the question. It is one of the "stickies" at the top of this sub-forum.

Side crimping or whatever you wish to call it is nothing more than driving the case wall into a ring around the circumference of the bullet as opposed to driving the case mouth into a ring around the circumference of the bullet using the taper crimp. Properly executed and especially when into a cannelure or driving band groove n the bullet, it can provide tension only dreamed of using the dimensionally limited taper crimp. Drawbacks (IMHO): It distorts a portion of the bullet's bearing surface in the case of a smooth walled bullet. It scars your brass, usually for life, relegating them to a life of crime. Oops, I mean a life of side crimp service. If you really like sub-MOA groups, unlike the taper crimp, I've had a hard time achieving them with side crimps. For most hunting situations where the 450b is an appropriate caliber, it'll probably not matter. Look at the picture of the loaded round at the beginning of this thread and you'll get an idea of how the side crimp works. Somewhere buried in this sub-forum, back a couple of years, is some drawings of how it works, that are worth a thousand words. Getting folks to these vignettes of information get harder as every day goes by and the forum grows deeper in thread and post count. I'm supposed to be mining for them and linking them in my useful information sub-forum, but it takes time, time which I will have much more of come winter in MN. ;)

Hoot

PS Someone recently asked me if more than one side crimp can be applied to a cartridge. From the above link:
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:14 pm

Sounds like another video project on my chalkboard.
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby kottke_35 » Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:50 am

Glad you are still here to post Hoot! Geesh, talk about impressive. Was this a reliable bottle of LIl'Gun? If memory serves me correctly, you got a "faulty" bottle of Lil'Gun a while back and disposed of it.

I've yet to employ the stab crimp on any loads that I've tested. I've not done a lot of experimenting but I've been able to turn out some decent loads. They probably shoot better than I can shoot them. After playing with some different loads, I've decided to stick with factory ammo for this years hunting season. I want to do some extensive testing with those 200gr XPB's, and get away from the 275's. TIme and money are both limiting factors for this year though. I've got other guns better suited for the tasks at hand and what I'm asking the 450 to do, factory ammo will work peachy!

Keep us posted on your latest endavor. BTW, how did those Barnes TMZ's shoot?

B.
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Hoot » Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:20 am

kottke_35 wrote:Glad you are still here to post Hoot! Geesh, talk about impressive. Was this a reliable bottle of LIl'Gun? If memory serves me correctly, you got a "faulty" bottle of Lil'Gun a while back and disposed of it.

I've yet to employ the stab crimp on any loads that I've tested. I've not done a lot of experimenting but I've been able to turn out some decent loads. They probably shoot better than I can shoot them. After playing with some different loads, I've decided to stick with factory ammo for this years hunting season. I want to do some extensive testing with those 200gr XPB's, and get away from the 275's. TIme and money are both limiting factors for this year though. I've got other guns better suited for the tasks at hand and what I'm asking the 450 to do, factory ammo will work peachy!

Keep us posted on your latest endavor. BTW, how did those Barnes TMZ's shoot?

B.


Yes, it's the first of two bottles from the same lot and has been spot on with other loads I've used it for since I got them. Probably never will know why that one last year or was it year before, wound up being a little tame.

Sounds like a good plan for this year's hunt. Those blems wound up not being Barnes TMZ. They are 250gr Thompson Shockwaves and they shoot a smidgen better than the Hornady 250 FTX. I salted those babies away for if and when I ever get a chance to hunt something harder to kill than MN white tails. The bonded core being the icing on the cake. Watch for later this year or early next year for Midway to finally get some of those COP 200gr XPB inspired bullets in stock for half the price of Barnes. Hopefully they won't be as far on the narrow side as the Barnes TAC-TX inspired COP bullets were. Those had great promise until I realized that one of the reasons I couldn't get decent neck tension and bore resistance was due to them being .449-.450 in diameter.

Got a little OT in the books above and beyond what I need for this year's deer season and may wind building an upper this winter for a new caliber of interest. All I need is a barrel and I'm good to go. Jury is still out but I need the occasional new challenge to stay engaged...

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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby BillytheKid » Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:44 pm

I think something must be wrong with me...I'm almost beginning to understand some of this stuff...
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby wildcatter » Fri Sep 28, 2012 5:42 pm

Hoot wrote:
Texas Sheepdawg wrote:I still maintain that the LeGendre Crimp is the key to getting LilGun cooking. Especially with my 230 grain FMJ projects. Once I started using my LeGendre Crimp and got my powder charges above 40.0 grains, the LilGun stopped sooting. YMMV.


I don't think there is or was any question as to the important role that bullet retentivity plays in getting a powder going before sending the bullet down the tube and not just Lil Gun. Side/Stab crimps have been around since before I was born. It is a means to an end. WCs adaptation of the Lee FCD to make a colletting tool to impart a side/stab crimp in an affordable way was pure genius. Far less expensive than the commercial ones employed by ammunition manufacturers that probably cost as much as one of our uppers, assuming they are not done with some kind of rolling tool, much like a tubing cutter.

The million dollar question WRT using additional bullet retention in any form, to stretch a powder's performance curve outside of it's sweet zone is, Where does the energy release reaction go from controlled to out of control? As in exceeding the design parameters of the case and chamber? That requires an investment in a pressure barrel, precise measuring equipment and laboratory conditions. With many spherical powders, potent, but safe loads developed at say 75 degrees can turn into demolition charges at 95 degrees. :(

Hoot


Several things.. This platform will take more than expected, don't ya think so now?

The LeGendre Side Crimp was designed to do exactly the things you talk about, namely, getting the powder cooking really well, before it releases from the case, better known as increased bullet pull. Your 2700+fps loads sound like mine, when I posted those Barnes 200gr XPB's at 3000fps. Now, I know your not recommending your load and neither am I, but guys, this is what can be done by experts and maybe you can do it too, or maybe you can invite a trip to the ER, so go with caution.

As to, "How much is too Much"? I always say let the pressures signs do the talking. From this side of the computer, poor at best, it sounds like, from your story, that you haven't hit Max Pressures yet??

..t

A.K.A...200Gr Barnes XPB's.. IF YOU TRY THIS, YOU'RE CRAZY!! KEEP IN MIND, I HAVE A LAB AND ALMOST AS MUCH EXPERIENCE AS THE HOOT!! AND BELIEVE ME TO DUPLICATE HIS DATA OR MINE TAKES AN EXTREME EXPERT, PERIOD!!!..t

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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Hoot » Fri Sep 28, 2012 6:58 pm

+1

Guys, especially new or soon to be new members. This is not a game, won or lost by who can cheat mishap the most in pursuit of some level of performance that no one else can achieve. Around here we judge folks not by how high they can reach, but by how many others they have helped along the way and how much fun they have and share with us during the journey.

Bon Voyage!

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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Fri Sep 28, 2012 7:43 pm

Or... As David Letterman used to say on stupid human tricks.
"This is an exhibition, not a competition. Please. No wagering."
LOL
But seriously, we are NOT competing in a race. We take our R&D safety very seriously. While we do sometimes colour outside the lines a bit, we know where the lines are and we know where the paper ends. And we do our best to share every bit of that information with all of you. The most important thing here is Safety.
What works in my rifle, might blow up yours. These guys finding issues with bullet shavings in their chambers are lucky they found that issue before shooting some of our more "aggressive" loads like my 230 grain FMJs at 44.5 grains.
Start in the safe zone and if you lack skill and confidence... Stay there until you gain more knowledge. We are not trying to one up each other on here. What you are seeing on this part of the forum is research and developement right before your eyes.
I gotta say, this forum blows my mind when I think of all the R&D and data that we have produced. And the 450 LeGendre Magnum hasn't even left R&D yet. Read that amazing thread.
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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby wildcatter » Sat Sep 29, 2012 11:33 am

Just a little ditty add-on..

Consider... the 230gr in a 1911 is doing 8-900fps and is considered possibly the best man stopper of all time.

Now it great to experiment, but my posted 3000fps loads will never make it to a high-end hunt. I'd slow them down to say 2500-2700fps, just to cover all of my safety Bets (They just ain't no Lab, in the field).

Now consider the terminal performance of Hoots or Dawgs Loads, if 850fps+- is, over the top tremendous, what say you about the terminal performance of the same FMJ's at our speeds.

We have everything we've ever needed, from Bullet Choices to Bang-Flop Realities. If you want to squeeze the last bit of performance out of our chosen poison, then go ahead, but their could be a bad price price to pay, in serious injuries, and the Moose will never now the difference, in our bullet going 100fps faster.

So, Safety First and let the gun and cartridge do the talking and you make the decision as to what's safe and what's not. As for me, when I hit the top of a load, I back way off, for the Run and Gun Load..

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Re: Everything I know is wrong.

Postby simpleman » Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:17 pm

Holy COW Hoot.
I can't wait to hear more about this load. My rifle loves the 200s and rewards me with great groups when I feed them to it. As in the "Best Loads" String I am only at 40.5 grains for this weekend seating to 2.187 and taper crimping the cannelure as the 200s I bought did not have the 2nd cannular. Enigma you called it.
Seating to 2.187 gives me great accuracy.
You have given me an idea to taper crimp one cannular and stab crimp the other both light to medium crimps. I will have to get some more 200s and hopefully they have both cannelures. My mouth is watering just thinking about it.
How deep is your stab crimp in the cannular?
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