Wide metplat (flat tip) terminal ballistic study

[bushmeister]

I ran across this, and thought I would post it up for reading and or discussion. I wasn't sure where to put it, so it ended up here. warning -It does have pictures of wound channels and such if you're the squeamish type.

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Article ... stics.html

[Hoot]

Interesting read on my lunch break, eating venison chili.
I'm sure we'll hear from Tim on this. He's a big fan of flat points.
No big revelation though. Everyone has stood waist deep in water and slapped their flat palm on the water. Contrast the result to a closed fist or karate chop.

My uncle Ken was a flat-foot in Baltimore. He was also on the city police department pistol shooting team. He showed me his .38 SPL service revolver once and I was surprised to see it loaded with 148gr wadcutters as opposed to the department approved 158gr round noses. When asked why, he grinned and replied, "For the splash". At the time, I didn't understand.

Thanks for the link.

Hoot

[wildcatter]

Interesting read on my lunch break, eating venison chili.
I'm sure we'll hear from Tim on this. He's a big fan of flat points.
No big revelation though. Everyone has stood waist deep in water and slapped their flat palm on the water. Contrast the result to a closed fist or karate chop. Good analogy..t

My uncle Ken was a flat-foot in Baltimore. He was also on the city police department pistol shooting team. He showed me his .38 SPL service revolver once and I was surprised to see it loaded with 148gr wadcutters as opposed to the department approved 158gr round noses. When asked why, he grinned and replied, "For the splash". At the time, I didn't understand.

Thanks for the link.

Hoot

To this day, if I carry a 38 I use Target load Wad Cutters and for my wife, this is all she'll use in her J-Frame 38spl, purse-gun. But then this comes from long years of experience with all manor of calibers and their bullet choices.

Mine started when as a child, and getting weaned on Coons, and Coon Hunting, the old pro's always used a 22lr rifle. Now if'n ya all have never killed a coon with a 22, well let's just say you'd better bring along several boxes of ammo. So, imagine the Heckling I received when I showed up with a 4" Python. They all thought I was going to blow up the coon. Well, well, with .38spl wad-cutters, they not only resoundingly killed the coon, but the bullet cut a nice clean hole, didn't go through the animal, and it was dead before it hit the ground. This was repeated many times that night. The 'Ol-Boys started noticing I had both hands free to handle the Out-Back. I also had a small light fix to my hat. With those rifles in one hand and a light in the other, all in the pitch dark, they just did not have the advantages I had. Those same gents that chastised me for the Python, all wanted the kid to take a turn at carrying their rifles, to which I respectfully declined. They never squawked at me again about anything again.

Since, and to this day, I keep a log, right with me in the field on little shirt pocket spiral binded flip pads, of Terminal Performance Results, you can only imagine how much data I have amassed (way too many stacked and stuffed five gallon pails). The over whelming results are that Flat Points Disrupt more tissue than expanded bullets, period, end of discussion or maybe you need to read my files, if you've got weeks and weeks of time on your hands. They fly as accurately as VLD's (consider..we do have many fine Match FMJ-FP's and the Full Wad-Cutters are all Match Quality), but do require the shooter to be more precise in knowing the range, as the Match type VLD types, can be more forgiving to a novice shooter, especially if shooting at unknown ranges or winds, coupled with the longer ranges (consider these two devices - http://www.kestrelmeters.com/Kestrel-45 ... -Meter.pro AND http://www.bushnell.com/products/rangef ... 6A40219DC5. Bushnell ARC Technology is also available. These are the best of the best (unless you are the Federal Reserve) and will extend your ranges easily to 600+ yards with the 450 AND be able to decide any issue when you get there to Boot! Note - I am awaiting the data of a reported shot through the lungs, wherein the bullet totally traversed and exited the chest of a broad-side Caribou at just over 925 yards, using a 230gr FMJ-RN Ball Bullet. The report was something of the effect that the animal took two steps and toppled), pics and the PH's written testimony to follow. At this point I only have a verbal from the PH reporting what a customer accomplished.) In the case of the 450b, I use a zero of 200yds and don't refer to the chart, under my scope cap, until the ranges go past 300yds, when Hunting. Now that's while hunting guys, which if the goal is many small groups at say 300yds (visit BD's most excellent work), then many more factors come into play. But if killing Dangerous Game is the goal and the target is 18"-36", which covers everything on the planet, including the Dark Continent, then, give me a Non-Expanding, Large Meplat Bullet, at the highest, safest speeds, possible, in a semi-auto, in a battle proven design, with enough caliber to guarantee an instant kill (are there any guns/caliber combinations out here that fit that bill?). The bullet I've described, will travel the path through the flesh you have mapped out, hitting all the organs you surveyed for (As opposed to an expanded bullet which slows down very quickly, mitigating it's terminal effects over it's shortened path and going in any direction after expanding, may not hit the organs you had intended for it and can come right back at you, in very rare occurrences, but then again I for one, wear a really great dueling scare, on my cheek, from just such a rare event.), and when the chips are down and you are about to play tag with a Wounded Dangerous Animal, the bullet I have described will NOT let you down, If-You've-Done-Your-Home-Work. The only thing left, is for you to do your part..."hit hard, hit it now, and hit it allot!!!..t

[MOUNTIN DU]

A-a-a-ah... Elmer Keith would be proud

[wildcatter]

:) A-a-a-ah... Elmer Keith would be proud

LOL!!

Hey du-man, funny you should mention Elmer. As a child, 5-15 or so years old, he used to do a show out here. My older brother and I would always approach him and just gab his ear off and he'd fill our heads with hunting stories, we'd gab for hours. After a couple of years of this, he knew us by name and would actually look for us and have little gifts for my brother and I. My Dad just stood back and let it all happen. Of course we had no idea who he was at the time and it wasn't until I was 25++ years old before I saw a picture of him, in an article, that I knew the connection. As a young man, I had been an E. Keith fan for along time, reading everything I could get my hands on about him. So imagine my surprise, when I found out who he was.

As a young man, I had been using his Keith bullets Professionally, for some time, which are now known as, Keith Type Semi-Wad Cutters. Now, Elmer only opened the door, that is, in the Venue of the Ultra-Kill-Bullets and Vernal Smith walked right smack through it. Vernal lived out here, not far from me and I was introduced to him and later determined that his bullet (Lead Bullet Technology) was far superior to the Keith bullet. I have been using variations of the LBT Bullets ever since (all lead, copper/lead and non-lead types), with overwhelming, and resounding success, I might add..t

A Keith paraphrase, to my brother and I. I remember he'd tell us something like this every year.."if you are punching paper, then most any bullet and load combination will get that job done, some far better than others, but if you need to kill the target, then choosing the right tools for that job rarely are good paper punchers." "If you need to kill it, boys, then get about that work and don't fool around with no dang (my emphasis, he didn't quite say it this way) cork guns".. E. Keith,

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Which FMJ flat points have the best jackets/ design for the 450? I know we have already discussed Rainier as inadequate.
WC, check your PMs/email.

[commander faschisto]

From the peanut gallery: Barnes Busters would seem to be mighty tempting to load up in the 450b, max pressure of course? If I remember correctly, the new AR-Comp powder is intended for heavy boolits in the AR platform. May be worth checking out?

[wildcatter]

From the peanut gallery: Barnes Busters would seem to be mighty tempting to load up in the 450b, max pressure of course?

You'd be well served with the Busters, my initial results were utterly fantastic. I only worked with them one day for an hour or so and did one loading and the first load gave 2100fps from a 20" barrel, using 1680 and makes me wonder if the Hoot Man or the Doc got a hold of them what the results might be..

..t

[BD1]

No need for a study as far as I'm concerned. Experience demonstrated the importance of a flat point to me long ago. Unlike WC, in Maine we weren't allowed center fire at night for coons, .22 rim fire only. I used a Ruger .22 pistol, hps and a three shot minimum, but I digress. Before my daughter was old enough to attend school, and I had to think about "income", I spent a lot of time in the north woods of Maine, guiding bear hunters among other things. I pretty quickly discovered the advantages of a heavy flat point in a handgun if your intention was to kill an animal. I carried a .44mag to guide bear for reasons WC has already spelled out, dogs in one hand, pistol in the other. Anyone who ever had to climb a big white pine to see if the treed bear was worth the trouble will understand the utility of a handgun. When not hunting I carried a 1911 as it is far more concealable than a DW 744. Over time I realized the limitations of SWCs regarding lethality on critters even as small as feral dogs, coons and coyotes. Veral's design for the 1911 at the time was a 200 grain WFN that wouldn't feed through anything I owned, (and he wasn't doing any custom work at the time due to a govt sponsored vacation), so I designed the .45 BDacp, a RNFP 230 grain boolit with the ogive and meplat optimized for the 1911. It worked well and Lee has made two runs of 6 cavity molds for it to date. I let the design go free to anyone who asked and there are now several versions in .45 and you'll find the meplat on other Lee designs these days and at Mountain Molds. Veral's latest 1911 design is pretty similar. I've killed a fair truckload of game using RNFP cast boolits and I will say that I have absolute confidence in the design. It worked for Buffalo 100 years ago, and it works today. High velocity is not a requirement.

I'm confident that a 150 grain .270 Nosler Partition going over 3,000 fps into the boiler room will stop pretty much anything alive in north America. And, I've been known to use that when I've got an investment in a big game hunt on open ground. When I'm picking my shots. But for general use hunting, or guiding, when you're mostly in the woods and don't really know what may happen, (occasionally the "shot" picks you), I think the .450B with a big fat flat point is the more versatile tool.
BD