which crimp die

[plant_one]

so i've been trying to do some homework - and one of the things i cant find is which die is better - the modified lee FCD or the hornady crimp die that comes with the set?


i'm familiar with the FCD's from other calibers, but not so much with the hornady dies.

would someone be willing to explain the difference, and pros & cons for the two different dies (besides having to make the lee FCD die anyway)

any help would be appreciated.

[Hoot]

The " FCD's from other calibers" isn't how the modified FCD is implemented when reloading the 450b. That's an entire story of it's own.
The instructions that come with the Hornady New Dimension die set for the 450b are infamous for being next to useless. I do like their seating die, though it's a little more complicated in it's internal workings. Key to successful 450b reloading is not to screw the seating die down to where it imparts a roll crimp. The taper crimp is to be applied after the seating step. I run two single stage presses alongside each other, so that's a little faster producing finished product. The taper crimp as it's name implies, introduces a slight taper profile to the case starting at the mouth and going down the sides about 1/3 of the way to the head, in the hopes of creating more retentitivity between the case and the bullet. If you elect to use the expander prior to seating the bullet, again an entire story all it's own, it also removes the bell in the process.

The 450b craves more retentivity more than any other caliber I reload for, but more so when using lighter bullets. IMHO, you give up a degree of accuracy when you use the modified Lee 45-70 FCD die to perform a stab crimp, but it really helps in retaining bullets that are smooth sided. The taper crimp excels when pressed into a bullet's cannelure or in the case of all copper bullets, the grooves between the driving bands.

A testimony to the need for more retentivity in this caliber is evidenced when you go from a taper crimp recipe that yields a resultant velocity of say, 2200fps. Changing only the crimp to a stab type can change that same recipe's resultant velocity to say, 2350fps. The sacrifice in accuracy is not a factor if all you are looking for is "minute of deer". As a youth, growing up in a state where part was shotgun only and part was rifle. When we hunted in the shotgun only zone, we'd check sight-in with our smoothbores and Foster type slugs. If you could keep your shots somewhat centered inside a 9" paper plate at 75 steps, you were good to go. Given the stopping power of a rifle speed bullet with a large frontal area like the 450b, there is little to gain from sweating over groups that cannot be reduced to less than 2" at 100 yards. That will put meat in the freezer. If you choose to shoot a much greater distances, then yeah, it can matter. Geometry always wins the argument, where ballistics are concerned.

Then there's the issue of bullets pulling out as the round is chambered from inertia. That increases as the bullet weight goes up due to more momentum. A good crimp can reduce or eliminate any pulling from repeatedly chambering and extracted the same round unfired. A condition that can happen when hunting, from unloading to climb into a stand, then reloading, repeatedly. In those circumstances, I remove all the rounds and move the top one to the bottom of the stack. That way, all of them get a few rides but not too many. That is minimally effective in reducing bullet pull. If you have a receiver with forward assist, what really helps is easing the round into the chamber ad thumbing the FA to make sure it's in battery. Something I do even when a round is chambered as I nervously watch a deer navigate into a shooting solution. Just force of habit. Some loose fitting bullets will pull with just one slam chamber cycle. That's where an effective crimp earns its keep. Much of this is common sense, but it is always good practice to see how your particular rig and reload behaves before you need it to go to bat for you.

I have several modified 45-70 Less FCDs that I've modified and if I'm loading critical reliability rounds, I use one of them. Rare are the times I'm afforded a shot beyond 75 yards in the north woods of Minnesota, so MOA performance is rated by diminishing return vs reliability. When I'm testing at the range, aside from capturing velocities, its always fun to shoot for groups at the same time, so yeah, I load for accuracy then. This caliber is just as lethal at 2200fps as 2350fps inside of 100 yds.

Hoot

[plant_one]

The " FCD's from other calibers" isn't how the modified FCD is implemented when reloading the 450b. That's an entire story of it's own.

ya i'll agree, it was a poorly worded choice, i tend to lose something in translation in the wee hours. i meant the FCD made from a modified 45-70 die. in general i was refering to using a lee FCD die to crimp vs the hornady one.

The instructions that come with the Hornady New Dimension die set for the 450b are infamous for being next to useless.

ya i noticed that with the .204 and 300 blk dies of their that i have. calling them 'being next to useless' is pretty nice way of putting it

I do like their seating die, though it's a little more complicated in it's internal workings. Key to successful 450b reloading is not to screw the seating die down to where it imparts a roll crimp. The taper crimp is to be applied after the seating step. I run two single stage presses alongside each other, so that's a little faster producing finished product. The taper crimp as it's name implies, introduces a slight taper profile to the case starting at the mouth and going down the sides about 1/3 of the way to the head, in the hopes of creating more retentitivity between the case and the bullet. If you elect to use the expander prior to seating the bullet, again an entire story all it's own, it also removes the bell in the process.

as i mentioned (and poorly worded again) i'm familiar with using the Lee FCD die in several calibers. I load cast and plated along with jacketed bullets in both rifle and handgun and as such had to learn to use a crimp properly to remove the belling necessary to seat these types of bullets correctly. I do NOT roll crimp anything. ive always felt - based on my early experience with improperly setup seating dies when i frist started reloading - that trying to crimp AND seat at the same time can cause more problems than it helps.

i do most of my reloading these days on my hornady LNL AP. I'm spoiled by the case feeder. so i keep station 5 as the dedicated crimping station when loading. however i only do true "one pass" progressive loading for pistol plinking rounds. I process rifle stuff in different stages. a brass prep stage - universal decapper, stainless tumble to clean, FL resize, trim/chamfer/deburr and primer pocket maintenance if necesssary. then once i have a pile of pretty brass ready to reload i regear the press and setup for reloading with a expander in station one (where needed), powder drop in 2, powder cop in station 3, seater die in 4 (no crimping) and a FCD in station 5. sometimes i prime on press, other times i hand prime. depends on my mood

Given the stopping power of a rifle speed bullet with a large frontal area like the 450b, there is little to gain from sweating over groups that cannot be reduced to less than 2" at 100 yards. That will put meat in the freezer. If you choose to shoot a much greater distances, then yeah, it can matter.

amen to that. hunting accuracy vs shooting pretty groups on paper are two separate issues. i have no expectations of using this caliber as a precision platform. short, fat bullets dont tend to lead to optimal accuracy situations. otherwise benchrest shooters wouldn't be questing for heavy for caliber (long) bullets with super BC's. I'll be more than pleased to be in the 1-2 moa range with this caliber. I have other calibers that shoot long skinny bullets for playing more of the accuracy game i just want a rifle that i can hunt with in our 'restricted caliber' zone to extend my deer hunting a few days without having to drive 2½ hours to the family farm/hunting grounds.

Then there's the issue of bullets pulling out as the round is chambered from inertia. That increases as the bullet weight goes up due to more momentum. A good crimp can reduce or eliminate any pulling from repeatedly chambering and extracted the same round unfired. A condition that can happen when hunting, from unloading to climb into a stand, then reloading, repeatedly. In those circumstances, I remove all the rounds and move the top one to the bottom of the stack. That way, all of them get a few rides but not too many.

ive used that method of bullet rotation in my hunting guns for years now. GMTA

If you have a receiver with forward assist, what really helps is easing the round into the chamber ad thumbing the FA to make sure it's in battery. Something I do even when a round is chambered as I nervously watch a deer navigate into a shooting solution. Just force of habit. Some loose fitting bullets will pull with just one slam chamber cycle. That's where an effective crimp earns its keep. Much of this is common sense, but it is always good practice to see how your particular rig and reload behaves before you need it to go to bat for you.

this is a good reminder. i've been riding the bolt and using the FA to finalize chambering for about a year now. i never bothered in the past as my .308 was a slickside - no forward assist/dust cover - and before that my 30-06 was a more traditional rifle - albeit a pump - so i just slammed them home. its a whole lot quieter riding the bolt down and using the FA - which is more of why i started doing it. I crimp w/ a FCD (to varying degrees) all my rifle rounds that will go into anything other than a bolt gun to prevent both setback and inertial pulling.

I have several modified 45-70 Less FCDs that I've modified and if I'm loading critical reliability rounds, I use one of them. <snip> This caliber is just as lethal at 2200fps as 2350fps inside of 100 yds.
Hoot

many calibers are just as lethal at -150 FPS from max - or more. I run a 2050 FPS Hunting load in my blackout even though i know i can squeeze at least another 200 fps out of it. the same applies to my 204 accuracy/hunting load. i'm pretty sure that whatever i put a vmax through at 3700 FPS isnt going to know the difference of getting hit with that or a 4000 FPS version that produces groups >2x its size.

i guess what i'm saying is im not one of those reloaders who's only goal is "how fast can i make it shoot". as long as i can keep the bullet above its expansion velocity at the point of impact .... a slow accurate will kill way more effectively than a fast inaccurate bullet will any day.

450 BM will put me into the bakers dozen range of calibers i reload for - both bottle neck and straight walled cartridges. i've been adding calibers steadily over the last 6 years after starting to reload to make feeding my ar affordable. little did i konw at the time that not only could i shoot more for my $ that i could also makke really good ammo!



I have a fair selection of 4227, H110, Lil Gun and 1680 as well as D0-63 (a 1680 replacement powder by Lovex also being sold as Shooters World Blackout Powder). I see no reason why i wont be using lil gun for most of my 450 BM reloading, but have enough of 1680 & a pretty much unlimited local source for the D0-63 that i have on the shelf already if i really get into lobbing those 300 XTPs on a regular basis. I've had great results using the D0-63 in my blackout for subs and plan to test it on heavy supers this summer as well. I'm hearing results of >2000 FPS range with 150-155gr bullets is totally possible with 1680 & d0-63.


so for the final takeaway

The 450b craves more retentivity more than any other caliber I reload for, but more so when using lighter bullets. IMHO, you give up a degree of accuracy when you use the modified Lee 45-70 FCD die to perform a stab crimp, but it really helps in retaining bullets that are smooth sided. The taper crimp excels when pressed into a bullet's cannelure or in the case of all copper bullets, the grooves between the driving bands.

so generally speaking - while the taper crimp die that hornady provides will be usefull for many applications, you're suggesting that a lee FCD would be more functional for most - or at least more - (if not all) applications?


i'll be starting with the 250 FTX and then experimenting with the 300 XTP. i may mess with some other more economical options using the lighter stuff down the road - but as i've said - i have other calibers i can plink with. this is going to be primarily a single use upper - hunting. ok so i wont lie - i'll probably use it to see how big of holes i can put in random stuff too

[Hoot]

Sorry for my initial word heavy reply. I tend to err on the side of too much info when I don't not know the level of skill of the person I'm speaking to.

The heavier the projectile, the greater the tendency for it to stay at rest during ignition and the less a factor retentitivity from the crimp factors in. Just the opposite effect when pulling occurs during slam chambering. When I'm load testing for a Range Report, every round gets single loaded and eased into battery, so as to maintain as much of the quality prep I put into the loading process. We seem to be on the same page in a lot of our reloading prep and attention to detail. We've seen a surge in new members as a result of states expanding their shotgun only zones to include not only pistols, like here in my state, but to also allow pistol calibers in rifle platforms. Wish wish...

FWIW, of all the 300gr bullets I've tested, I like the XTP Mag the best. The taper crimp works more than adequately in the XTP line thanks to the cannelure(s). Unfortunately, I've had dismal success getting 1680 to kick them hard enough and it remains my go-to powder for my 7.62x40. Not to fling boogers at a phenomenal marketing strategy, but that's what the 300 BO would have been if it had not been championed by a suppressor manufacturer. To each their own.

Setting up and more importantly, getting it set up the same, the next time you load a batch, can be tricky with the modded Lee FCD. I've gotten to the point that I just made several with their dimensions cut for specific recipes, rather than fiddle fart with readjusting the same one, getting it set just right. Love Hornady locking dies rings. Have a parts drawer loaded with those aluminum, Lee rings. They make a sweet sounding mobile as well.

It's hard to beat the slightly slower than Lil Gun, W296 for the 300 grainers. Actually, not that hard, but there's nothing to fill the gap between it and 1680, that I've tried. That's the first I've heard about Lovex DO-63, other than seeing it on the QuicLoad list for Lovex powders. I just assumed Lovex wasn't very available in the US. Looking at QL's behavior characteristics for the two, side by side, the author must not think of them as direct replacements for one another. Looking at those characteristics, I get the gut feeling that DO-63 may be a better choice for 300 grainers, than 1680. Do try some and report your results back to us. It may be the missing link! The precision cast boolit guys in the club keep trying to lure me into that arena. We run into each other a lot at the rifle range. I keep telling them that I have enough "money pits" already in play, Thank you kindly. I still I enjoy hearing about their passion and watching the groups they pull down!

Hoot

[plant_one]

Sorry for my initial word heavy reply. I tend to err on the side of too much info when I don't not know the level of skill of the person I'm speaking to.

no problem at all! i'd rather get more info than i need than not what i was looking for! I can totally understand where you're coming from helping other reloaders on different forums. until you can get a feel for their skill level its always safest to assume they just bolted their press down for the first time 5 mins before they made their post.

FWIW, of all the 300gr bullets I've tested, I like the XTP Mag the best. The taper crimp works more than adequately in the XTP line thanks to the cannelure(s). Unfortunately, I've had dismal success getting 1680 to kick them hard enough

what others have been finding - at least in the blackout world - is that 1680 seems to shine exceptionally well in the supersonic world when run as a compressed load. Have you tried it with a magnum primer?

and it remains my go-to powder for my 7.62x40. Not to fling boogers at a phenomenal marketing strategy, but that's what the 300 BO would have been if it had not been championed by a suppressor manufacturer. To each their own.

no blood, no foul! the fact that the blackout suppressed so well is one of the really cool things about it. i know more than a few blackout shooters who also have a WT in their fun kit too for the most part i tend to stick to SAMMI calibers as they tend to have a little more support, but i can see that changing soon. i'm seeing a 6x45 upper in my future at some point heheh! although that'll likely be next years project. with adding the BM i've got 3 different uppers to get loads dialed in for this summer.

Setting up and more importantly, getting it set up the same, the next time you load a batch, can be tricky with the modded Lee FCD. I've gotten to the point that I just made several with their dimensions cut for specific recipes, rather than fiddle fart with readjusting the same one, getting it set just right. Love Hornady locking dies rings.

fair enough. i'll start with the hornady taper crimp and go from there if i start seeing issues i cant fix otherwise. As i mentioned i dont plan to get TOOO overly exploratory with this caliber - at least right now. find two or three things that work great and i'll probably be a happy guy.

Have a parts drawer loaded with those aluminum, Lee rings. They make a sweet sounding mobile as well.

ive been using all my old lee rings to hold my Quick Trim dies. At least i didnt have to waste them. that Single stage is still good for a few things

It's hard to beat the slightly slower than Lil Gun, W296 for the 300 grainers. Actually, not that hard, but there's nothing to fill the gap between it and 1680, that I've tried. That's the first I've heard about Lovex DO-63, other than seeing it on the QuicLoad list for Lovex powders. I just assumed Lovex wasn't very available in the US. Looking at QL's behavior characteristics for the two, side by side, the author must not think of them as direct replacements for one another. Looking at those characteristics, I get the gut feeling that DO-63 may be a better choice for 300 grainers, than 1680. Do try some and report your results back to us. It may be the missing link! The precision cast boolit guys in the club keep trying to lure me into that arena. We run into each other a lot at the rifle range. I keep telling them that I have enough "money pits" already in play, Thank you kindly. I still I enjoy hearing about their passion and watching the groups they pull down!

Hoot

its not truly a direct replacement, but you can easily use 1680 data to work loads up from. almost like using H335 data to develop WC-844 loads. from what ive read when doing homework on it when i first discovered it - it looks like Lovex used to make 1680 for AA, and now that they no longer do they changed the recipe just enough to not offend the lawyers and started labeling the new stuff as D0-63. Shooters World blackout is just a private label of the lovex powder (just like Hodgdon does with Varget that they get out of australia where its sold under the ADI label as AR2208)

do-063 - in what i've used it for so far - is just a LITTLE faster than 1680. i'd put it somewhere right between that and 4227 on the burn rate chart. it might be just a touch denser than 1680 too. FWIW - there are actually TWO D0-63's out there.. D0-63.1 and D0-63.2. the shooters world blackout is the ".2" version. I have the ".1" version that i get from a local ammo manufacturer in bulk. they both use the same load data though. i dont recall seeing any specific ".1" or ".2" data anywhere. i have to download it about .3gr from 1680 data when loading subs for either my 9" pistol or my 16" carbine blackouts to keep my subs as subs. one thing i can tell you that everyone i've seen who used it says - myself included - is that its quite possibly one of the cleanest powders you can get your hands on. i see as much love for that as i do the vihtavuori powders when it comes to clean burning. it really makes 1680 look like the dirty bird that it is.

h110/w296 is ok, but i dont like how touchy it gets when you get to the upper end of the loads so i dont use it much. I've seen it go from 'hey that looks alright' to 'holy sh!t that primer is flat!' in a half grain jump. i've not played with it in anything else and honestly had only picked it up to do load workups for the barnes blacktips as that was the only powder data that was available when they first hit the market - not to mention that like any of us looking for powder a couple years ago - you bought whatever was in the load data chart for your caliber/bullet when you saw it eh?

do you find its as noticeable of an issue with the larger case that the 450BM uses? or is that just a general trait of the powder?

[plant_one]

and i guess this thread does belong in the 450 reloading section, not in general. please feel free to move it wher eit belongs. i aparently see i started in the wrong forum to begin with.

[Hoot]

and i guess this thread does belong in the 450 reloading section, not in general. please feel free to move it wher eit belongs. i aparently see i started in the wrong forum to begin with.

Done.

Hoot

[Hoot]

...snip...
h110/w296 is ok, but i dont like how touchy it gets when you get to the upper end of the loads so i dont use it much. I've seen it go from 'hey that looks alright' to 'holy sh!t that primer is flat!' in a half grain jump. i've not played with it in anything else and honestly had only picked it up to do load workups for the barnes blacktips as that was the only powder data that was available when they first hit the market - not to mention that like any of us looking for powder a couple years ago - you bought whatever was in the load data chart for your caliber/bullet when you saw it eh?

do you find its as noticeable of an issue with the larger case that the 450BM uses? or is that just a general trait of the powder?

Truth be told, my experience with W296 has been that its a pussy cat in this caliber. I suspect the low pressure that the 450b is loaded to has some impact upon its behavior. Never seen it jump in a non-linear fashion as I worked up the ladder in this caliber with different bullets. Unfortunately, its another powder that QuickLoad totally does not understand in the 450b. Over-predicts performance by around 15-20%, even with the start pressure derated. Most loads for the 450b when modeled in QL, need the start pressure set to zero in order to be close to accurate predicting. A not so secret "secret".

For the record, I use Remington 7 1/2 primers in all my 450b work. Like peas and carrots. Other members use different primers and most work to their satisfaction.

Hoot

[Hoot]

I've said this way too many times around theses parts, but if you want an easy to get right reloading, affordable to shoot, amazingly accurate in a regular Bushmaster 20" 450b upper, choice for bullets, the .452 Hornady 225 FTX is hard to beat. Change the contributing factors like going with a 1:16 twist or going with a rifle length gas system and the magic is lost. Been there, done that.
You can shop around for Hornady 45218 (use those specific search terms) and its not unusual to find them for $.26 each. Less if you catch the blemish sales on Midway. Not very long ago, I seem to recall some from Midway for like $14.00 per box of 100! Should have bought more of them. Even when not on sale, there is not a budget busting difference between the cost of them and a quality 230gr FMJ. Avoid electroplated FMJs like the plague! While we're on that subject, my experience with the 230 fmj has been that its the hardest bullet to get to fly right out of a bone stock 450b. They have no hollow point and as such they are more dense and wind up being short in length for the same weight. That equates to not much bearing surface for the case to hold onto. Add to that, the are smooth as a smacked baby's butt on the sides and there's not much to bind with using the simple taper crimp. The 225's have a nice cannelure that works well with the Hornady taper crimp. Not everyone has the same opinion of the 230 fmj as I.

In the case of the 225 FTX, you can catch two accuracy nodes with a 20" 1:24 barrel. Three actually, but the lower one is pretty low in velocity and you may be on the edge in cycling energy. There are plenty of good bullet choices in the 450b. In my opinion, the 225 ftx and 240 XTP Mag are around the center of the sweet zone with Lil Gun. the 250 gr FTX bullets and other colored knockoffs that are showing up are good to go as well. My experience in terms of the beauty of Lil Gun is that it rolls off above the 275 Barnes XPB. On the low side, it is fast enough for the 200 FTX and XPB as well. Perhaps more so as the recipe that the OEM uses seems to have crept up in speed as of late. Haven't tried the new Lil Gun with 275 XPB's so the jury is still out. The older mix worked superbly with them.

Hoot

[plant_one]

i'm pretty sure i saw a box of those at cabela's a week or two back. i'm lucky to be near the Dundee store - and drive past it every couple weeks - so i've usually got access to good optoins. i'll have to give them a whirl. see about getting a box of all three - the 225 ftx, the 250 ftx and the 300 XTP. cant say i've ever seen a box of the 240 XTP on the shelf before.


what do you consider "new" lil gun? most of mine is a year old or more.