Looking for a Mid-range 450BM Load......

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Looking for a Mid-range 450BM Load......

Postby papajohn » Tue May 24, 2016 8:20 pm

Hi all, new member here, been shooting my 450BM (AR-15) for about six months, worked up some loads that will kill anything that breathes, but as much as I love the gun, I don't need all that power for everyday plinking and paper-punching. I've been using Lil Gun (older batch) for the majority of my loads, and bullets from 200-250 grains so far with pretty decent results, accuracy and consistency-wise. I still have the rest of that keg and another old one to work with, but I have a ton of other powders on hand, WW-680 and AA-1680, IMR-4227, IMR-3031, Longshot, almost every Accurate powder there is, SR-4756 and 4759, Reloder 7, and 10, Alliant 2400, ww296 and H-110, and quite a few others that probably wouldn't work as well, too fast or too slow. I'll probably stick with 200-230 grain bullets for most of my shooting since I have tons of those already, and save the spendy Hornady FTX bullets for things that bleed.

Your thoughts? Any and all suggestions appreciated, I love Lil Gun but realize there are a lot of powders that could work, and I'm not into trying every possible bullet/powder combo, like I was 35 years ago! :roll:
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Re: Looking for a Mid-range 450BM Load......

Postby Hoot » Wed May 25, 2016 4:08 am

The 200gr FTX bullet has an accuracy node that's more tame. IIRC, it is something like 34-36gr of LG, seated to taper crimp into the cannelure. Try some loads in that range, maybe +/- a grain or two. I can't remember whether the 225 does also. It's cheaper than the 200, but if you catch bulk sales that Midway has from time to time, you can get the 200s for what the 225s normally cost. All my loads are using the Rem 7 1/2 primer.
Its good you have the older Lil Gun. I'm starting to suspect the newer, hotter stuff may just need a cooler primer. Haven't tried that but its on my experiment short list.

Running a little behind due to daughter's college graduation and getting her and her significant other moved out of the basement.

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Re: Looking for a Mid-range 450BM Load......

Postby Jim in Houston » Thu May 26, 2016 2:35 pm

As far as I can recall, the only other powders that I've seen "recommended" on the forum are ww296 and H-110, but usually in the cases that you couldn't find LG. I have not used either.
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Re: Looking for a Mid-range 450BM Load......

Postby papajohn » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:10 pm

After a long hiatus I'm finally getting back to dealing with the 450 BashMaster, the past 2 years have involved far too much working and far too little ballistic experimenting. But I spent six hours at the range yesterday, shot up a bunch of loads, and I now return to you fine folks with some questions.

My loads were all with 230-grain Sierra JHP's and 200-grain Hornady FTX's I've had for a couple years. The 230's shot well enough at 36 grains of Lil Gun, but the recoil impulse seemed a little "odd". When I switched to the 200's at 38 grains I suddenly realized that about every third shot was a hangfire. Some were just a millisecond between the hammer falling and the gun recoiling, others were almost a half second in between. The last shot of the day seemed like a misfire, but when I went to extract the round the bullet pulled loose and spilled powder all over the action, some of it clumped into a hard mass, but not discolored as I've seen happen with Varget in past testing. The bullet showed no signs of sooting or heat, so if the primer actually fired, it wasn't much of a spark.

After the Varget debacle, I decided a hotter primer and a faster powder seemed a good idea, so I switched to the CCI Small Rifle Magnum primer. That's what was used in the loads I shot yesterday, which made the hangfires even more disturbing. I know CCI's primer cups are harder, but I thought the hotter primer would help, and apparently ignition is still too mild to give good consistency.

So the next batch will be primed with Rem 7-1/2's, and powder charges will be boosted slightly, to eliminate as much airspace in the case as possible without exceeding proven load data. I'm still looking for a midrange load, but need to get this particular wrinkle ironed out first.

Your thoughts?
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Re: Looking for a Mid-range 450BM Load......

Postby Al in Mi » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:44 pm

my thoughts, crimp them a little tighter, possibly even eliminate the expander.
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Re: Looking for a Mid-range 450BM Load......

Postby Hoot » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:26 pm

As I've recommend before, 38gr of Lil Gun, seat the 200gr FTX so that the cannelure is mostly buried beneath the case mouth, but a little is still visible. Taper crimp down into that cannelure to yield a mouth diameter around .474, measured as close to the mouth as possible. That should hold them back until the powder has a chance to get cooking.

What's happening is the force from the primer is pushing the bullets out before the powder gets cooking. Modern powders burn faster (before bullet departs) the higher the pressure. If the bullet jumps out before the powder gets going, the resultant burn is not intense enough to cause a fast rise in pressure and most of the powder leaps out further than the primer flame can reach. Rem 7 1/2 primers seem to rule the roost in terms of getting the powder going quickly but a good crimp is even more critical. It should take 5 or 6 good whacks on concrete to pop the bullet out of a properly crimped case.

There's a small chance but still a remote possibility that you got a batch of bullets that are smaller than their .452 spec. Only takes a second to check a few with the micrometer. Also, in the case of using a caliper to do a mic's job, you should check the calibration of the caliper. If its wrong, everything will be wrong.

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Re: Looking for a Mid-range 450BM Load......

Postby papajohn » Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:04 pm

Hoot, I was hoping you'd chime in on this thread, I've been reloading since the early 80's but this cartridge is a bit different than the more common rounds I load for. Most of my reloading involves pistol rounds, mass-produced on a turret press neutered to single-stage. The 450 BashMaster, as I like to call it, is more specialized and has a few quirks I wasn't looking for.

As it happens, you were right about the bullets being undersized! At least half of the 200 FTX slugs miked at .4505" or close, some were as big as .4518" but it would certainly explain both the hangfires and the inconsistency from round to round. The Sierra 230 JHP's I also shot were apparently closer to being fat enough to make most of the rounds shoot well without problems. The next batch of loads will use the 250 FTX, which mike at .4525" (at the base) but yet have no cannelure. That could make crimping slightly more problematic, but the addition of 25% more bullet weight should also help with the shotstart pressure, as should the different (softer) primer.

BTW, I have both a decent caliper and a pretty nice micrometer, so I'm confident in my readings.

Got any preferred load data for the 250 FTX? I'm planning on starting at 35 grains of Lil Gun and working up to 36 or a hair above that but no farther. I'm not a fan of maximum loads in general, and certainly not in semiautos. Most of the loads that give me the best accuracy and ballistic consistency are in the 90-93% range of what's possible, and I don't surpass that without good reason.
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Re: Looking for a Mid-range 450BM Load......

Postby Bmt85 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:06 pm

The bullets being undersized definitely can be an issue with hangfires. Similar problem when running pistol bullets. They are usually.451 or less, except Sierra 230 FMJ and 200 HP, they are around .4515 which helps a lot. It also doesn’t help that the pistol bullets have less bearing surface, too. Like Hoot said, add more crimp, but it also helps to run more powder. I know in my Bushmaster factory upper I need to start at 40gr of Lilgun to not get hangfires and get the case to seal to the chamber. In my Tromix, however, it o my needs to be 36 or 38gr. Another good pistol bullet option is the Nosler 230gr Flat Point. It’s still .451 diameter, but has a lot more bearing surface compared to standard FMJ’s. And of course there is the 225 FTX, it’s a great plinking option.

As to the 250ftx, you should be fine starting at 35gr, because of the diameter and bearing surface. You might need to work past 36gr to find an accuracy node, so I wouldn’t stop at 36gr, unless you hit a node at that point. I’ll let Hoot or someone else chime in on the crimp.
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Re: Looking for a Mid-range 450BM Load......

Postby Hoot » Sun Apr 15, 2018 8:44 pm

You strike me as a guy who's been around the reloading block a few times. Given that and the fact that you have an older batch of Lil Gun, you can cut to the start of the sweet zone if you want by starting with 38gr, seated to 2.26 COL and taper crimp to somewhere between .475 and .476 with those smooth sided 250 FTX bullets. That recommendation is based upon using Rem 7 1/2 primers. For smooth sided bullets, I taper crimp to that diameter. You don't want to distort the bullet into an hour glass profile though if you were doing that, doing it midway between the ogive and the heel would be about the best place. Once you exhaust your supply of older Lil Gun and have to buy some new, drop back to 36gr and work up from there depending upon ambient temperature. My 20 inch Bushmaster upper loved just about any bullet at or under 275gr, going 2200 fps except those cursed 230 fmj's. If i were happy with them grouping at 2-3 MOA at 100 yds, then they would have been less cursed in my mind. :|

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Re: Looking for a Mid-range 450BM Load......

Postby papajohn » Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:00 pm

I've been all over the Interwebz tonight seeking suitable bullets for further experimentation, there is a 300-grain Speer Soft-point that Graf's carries with a current listed price of $12.49 for 50, which is almost unheard of these days, so I'm going to order a hundred or more tomorrow and see where that takes me. I've always been a cheap so-and-so (just ask my exes....) and I appreciate a good bargain, but only if it shoots well and does the job I ask of it.

HOOT, like you I have a 20" Bushmaster upper, and I also tested some loads with 230 FMJ bullets.......44 grains of Accurate 1680 gave me far better accuracy than I expected, mostly because they were cheapo Armscor bullets, but I figured 2-3" groups at 100 yards were plenty good enough for my initial test loads. The other test loads were a mix of 230 XTP's and Sierra 230 JHP's, and none of those were significantly better. At that point I was worried a lot more about the mag issues I was having, of the three Bushmaster mags I had only one was reliable, and shooting good groups when you constantly have to deal with feeding/jamming issues is a study in frustration. Things are getting better with the mags, but I'd be a lot happier if I could figure out how to tear the mags down and polish a few things. In spite of what others claim, I'm not OCD. No, really, I'm NOT. Stop grinning like that. :roll:

I have a major love affair going with my Marlin 45-70 Guide Gun, and the primary reason for getting the 450BM was because it's kind of like a 45-70 in an AR Platform. I've had a dozen or more AR's, I like the platform a lot, and decided that in case wild pigs ever overrun St Louis, a man ought to have a Thumper, just to be on the safe side. That's my justification, and I'm sticking with it. I've certainly heard a lot sillier reasons for buying a gun than that, and so have you.

I appreciate the feedback I've gotten here, I love being a part of a forum where everyone is a handloader, because as a general rule we like to tinker and figure things out and try new stuff. For a dozen years I was the Reloading Forum moderator on a popular site, and fielding questions from new guys was always fun and challenging. Now I'm the newbie, dealing with all the weird variables in a round that isn't like what I'm used to dealing with, and it's comforting to know that y'all (or ALL y'all) have already been down the same road I've just stumbled across.

I don't hunt anymore, never hunted a lot, and denied my craving for big-bore rifles for years. Then one day I was offered a sweet deal on a 45-70, bought it, and realized all the fun I'd been missing for years. Adding the 450 BashMonster was just a natural next step. I'd love to get back to hunting, but I'm older and lazier and won't do it unless it's something I want to eat, and I really like venison and pork. If wild porkers ever get up this far north (I'm not talking about the inner-city hogs, they've been here for years) I would love to do some real hunting, a 200-pound sow would be the best target I could find in my crosshairs.

Sorry for rambling, I don't get online much these days, hip/back issues preclude sitting for long. But it's fun getting onto a forum where we have a favorite caliber in common.

I like it here. You guys are cool. ;)
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