Notes about the Lee .45 Taper Crimp Die

[pitted bore]

An observation:

If you look down into the mouth of a shiny new and unfired 450B case with good light, it's possible to see the point at which the brass begins to thicken toward the case head. The inner brass wall is smooth for about the first half inch into the case, and then there is a noticeable interruption of that surface. This shows up on the two early lots of brass that I have.

A question:

Do any forum members have access to a 45 ACP Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die #90864? How does it differ from the Lee steel taper crimp die #90785 described above? The carbide die has some sort of adjustable top stem, and I'm curious how it works. I hate to drop $15 just to find it does nothing that the steel die won't do. Here's a link to the Midway product web page: Lee Carbide die at Midway

Thanks.
--Bob
edited to repair link address

[wildcatter]

An observation:

If you look down into the mouth of a shiny new and unfired 450B case with good light, it's possible to see the point at which the brass begins to thicken toward the case head. The inner brass wall is smooth for about the first half inch into the case, and then there is a noticeable interruption of that surface. This shows up on the two early lots of brass that I have.

A question:

Do any forum members have access to a 45 ACP Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die #90864? How does it differ from the Lee steel taper crimp die #90785 described above? The carbide die has some sort of adjustable top stem, and I'm curious how it works. I hate to drop $15 just to find it does nothing that the steel die won't do. Here's a link to the Midway product web page: Lee Carbide die at Midway

Thanks.
--Bob

Doc, I just got home late last night. I plan to get to your pressure testing next week. But on those taper crimp dies, I called Lee, sometime ago, and they told me it was a standard taper crimp die. I use an RCBS 45acp taper crimper now and always have, just because that's what in the turret press and two lazy to take it out (I never fix anything not broken), saving the 450 Bushy Taper crimper for the single stage Rock Chucker, when I need it. Now, I know this does not exactly answer your question and somebody will probably over-ride me with better knowledge, but a 45 cal taper crimp die is pretty much the same over all the brands, designed to not put on to much taper for fear of not head spacing on the mouth, as that is the intension of any taper crimp, in other words, you can put to much crimp on, while using one, if you can that is an out of spec die (Which brings up an important consideration for you new reloaders, check and re-check, your loads in every way and dimension, reloading is dangerous stuff and made safe only by our individual, personal actions, and "NO" advise from this board or anywhere else, can make it safer). If you're looking to see if that lee die is a stab-crimp type, it is not. Hope this helps and you guys feel free to shim in and correct me..t

[michael5446]

from my limited experience here is the info i have,
there are basically 3 or 4 types of crimp dies...
1. roll crimp - folds the end of the case mouth into a cannelure on the bullet or into the bullet itself... --
2. basic taper crimp - presses the case mouth inward on a linear angle .... /\
3. modified taper crimp - presses the case mouth the same according to length of insertion... )(
4. a collet style crimp which squeezes inward according to how hard you push... ||

lee factory crimp die is a collet style die
lee taper crimp is a modified taper(from a good unidentified source)
many other dies are straight tapers

the problem comes from loading different length bullets of the 452 and how much crimp you need to keep it in check... i like the modified taper crimp as it keeps any length bullet evenly tensioned for the full length of bullet without squeezing the crap out it and keeping it true to the rifling... if a bullet goes in crooked it comes out crooked:)

just a thought

cheers

[pitted bore]

from my limited experience here is the info i have,
there are basically 3 or 4 types of crimp dies...
1. roll crimp - folds the end of the case mouth into a cannelure on the bullet or into the bullet itself... --
2. basic taper crimp - presses the case mouth inward on a linear angle .... /\
3. modified taper crimp - presses the case mouth the same according to length of insertion... )(
4. a collet style crimp which squeezes inward according to how hard you push... ||

michael5446-
So far, so good, but you omitted the neck stab-crimp (=LeGendre side-crimp), which many of us are using in some special applications with the 450B. It's applied using a modified Lee 45-70 factory crimp collet-type die, which is discussed extensively in some sticky threads in this reloading forum.

lee factory crimp die is a collet style die
lee taper crimp is a modified taper(from a good unidentified source)
many other dies are straight tapers

Not quite. Lee describes their 45 ACP carbide crimp die #90864 as a "Carbide Factory Crimp Die". You can check this on the Lee web site: Lee Crimp Die Page. The title and description is about a third of the way down the page. As far as I know, the Carbide Factory Crimp Die does not use a collet. (Lee does have a collet crimp die for bottle-neck pistol cartridges.) Not all dies that Lee calls "Factory Crimp" are collet dies.

By your definitions, I think the Lee 45 ACP steel taper crimp die #90785 produces a "modified taper".

What I'm trying to find out is whether the Carbide Factory Crimp die operates the same way as their steel crimp die. My first post is about the steel crimp die.

the problem comes from loading different length bullets of the 452 and how much crimp you need to keep it in check... i like the modified taper crimp as it keeps any length bullet evenly tensioned for the full length of bullet without squeezing the crap out it and keeping it true to the rifling... if a bullet goes in crooked it comes out crooked.

At least temporarily, I'm in your corner with use of the Lee steel crimp die, and applying a modified taper crimp. Wildcatter uses the RCBS 45 ACP taper crimp die, and I suspect it also produces a modified taper crimp.

Thanks.
--Bob

[michael5446]

So far, so good, but you omitted the neck stab-crimp (=LeGendre side-crimp), which many of us are using in some special applications with the 450B. It's applied using a modified Lee 45-70 factory crimp collet-type die, which is discussed extensively in some sticky threads in this reloading forum.

good info on yet another crimp... from what i have heard, the "carbide factory crimp" is a modified taper crimp and case sizer die in one... holds every thing in check while crimping without deforming the case in any way... the next time i'm in Hartford, WI i will stop in at Lee and try to get the full info from the horses mouth...

cheers

[pitted bore]

. . . from what i have heard, the "carbide factory crimp" is a modified taper crimp and case sizer die in one... holds every thing in check while crimping without deforming the case in any way... the next time i'm in Hartford, WI i will stop in at Lee and try to get the full info from the horses mouth...

michael5446-
Thank you for volunteering your effort and time to find out about the Lee carbide crimp die. I'll wait only a little bit impatiently for what you might learn.
--Bob

[Texas Sheepdawg]

I have the Lee #90864 die. Would it be okay to use or does it have to be modified? I've been using it for my 45ACP.

[BD1]

The Lee 45 acp carbide factory crimp die is a collet style die, but it's not a "active" collet such as the rifle FCD dies use. You adjust the ammount of crimp by turning the top knob down which compresses the collet, however there is no inner sleeve that then compresses the collet as you run the ram up against the bottom of the die as in the rifle FCD dies. I have nothing against the Lee .45 acp FCD die, and one has been in my dedicated .45 acp Pro-jector for more than 10 years. However, I would not recommend using the acp die for the .450B. The reason is that it has a carbide size ring at the case mouth which is designed to insure that all of the .45 acps that pass through it are sized full length to a diameter guaranteed to chamber. As the .450b brass has a slight taper, I can't see anything but trouble from running the cartridge up through that carbide ring. Also, my .450 brass has slightly thicker walls than a .45 acp case. That extra thickness combined with the .452 diameter bullets would only compound the issues that may be caused by the Lee .45 acp factory crimp die.

After several years experience with this cartridge I firmly believe that a modified Lee 45-70 FCD die providing the "LeGendre side crimp" is by far the best solution for the .450B. All of my testing has shown lower velocity standard deviation, and better accuracy, with all bullets tested when using the side crimp. It's a little bit of a pita to make one, but well worth the effort IMHO.
BD

[wildcatter]

The Lee 45 acp carbide factory crimp die is a collet style die, but it's not a "active" collet such as the rifle FCD dies use. You adjust the ammount of crimp by turning the top knob down which compresses the collet, however there is no inner sleeve that then compresses the collet as you run the ram up against the bottom of the die as in the rifle FCD dies. I have nothing against the Lee .45 acp FCD die, and one has been in my dedicated .45 acp Pro-jector for more than 10 years. However, I would not recommend using the acp die for the .450B. The reason is that it has a carbide size ring at the case mouth which is designed to insure that all of the .45 acps that pass through it are sized full length to a diameter guaranteed to chamber. As the .450b brass has a slight taper, I can't see anything but trouble from running the cartridge up through that carbide ring. Also, my .450 brass has slightly thicker walls than a .45 acp case. That extra thickness combined with the .452 diameter bullets would only compound the issues that may be caused by the Lee .45 acp factory crimp die.

After several years experience with this cartridge I firmly believe that a modified Lee 45-70 FCD die providing the "LeGendre side crimp" is by far the best solution for the .450B. All of my testing has shown lower velocity standard deviation, and better accuracy, with all bullets tested when using the side crimp. It's a little bit of a pita to make one, but well worth the effort IMHO.
BD

BD makes some great points and I hope you new-to-reloading guys are paying attention. If you put the 450 into a carbide sizer die meant for the 45acp, which has a base dia of .473", you'll be sizing our case down from .500" to .473", very bad idea..

..t

[pitted bore]

Well rats!

After I wrote up my blurb last Feb about the Lee Taper Crimp Die #90785, I asked about the characteristics of the Lee Carbide Die #90864. Not reading any responses, last Saturday (30 April) I ordered the carbide die from Midway along with a bunch of other stuff; I wanted to find out how it operated differently from the Lee steel taper crimp die. It looks like I could have saved the $$ and bought ice cream instead. I'll probably use it for my 45 ACP loading, so all is not lost.

I'll play with the die a bit with the 450B. Any report will undoubtedly simply confirm BD1's and Wildcatter's observations.

--Bob