LeGendre Stab Crimper

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LeGendre Stab Crimper

Postby SAGERATER » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:56 pm

Newby here, building an AR-15 450 B, looking reloading data.

Been doing this game for umpteen years'...all aspects...but this STAB CRIMP is new to me. :o I 've been using taper crimpers for most of my straight walled cartridges forever.

I crawled the net and this and other forums looking for where to buy this type of crimper and just keep getting zilch. :oops: Lots of very good information, but NO location or availability. :?:

I have a mil and lath and probably can make some kind of collet crimper but why reinvent the wheel when someone much smarter than me already has. :!:

SOMEONE...PLEASE... learn me up...I have bullets, powder, cases, factory ammo dies, etc.

Thanks :mrgreen:
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Re: LeGendre Stab Crimper

Postby Hoot » Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:42 pm

Welcome aboard Sage

It is not available commercially, but you can mod a Lee 45-70 Factory Crimp Die to make one. Given you have a mil and lathe, the skills needed are well within your capability.
Here's a Link to the article I posted on the process. It is generally composed to help members without the benefit of a mill or lathe, but you'll have no trouble translating from hand tools and improvisation to modern methods. I have a lathe and believe it or not, did not find any benefit from using it in the process. That doesn't mean its not so, just old dogs stay close to home. There were some improvement added in the threads that followed the main article, so read it all the way through before jumping in.

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Re: LeGendre Stab Crimper

Postby SAGERATER » Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:56 pm

Het Hoot...Thanks...should have looked a harder before asking...found the other posts...seems I'm a few years behind times... :oops: ...BUT while doing so I came up with a few more "Q's".

Any one try the Lee 460 S&W FCD??? :?: It is listed as available. at Lee and the measurements seem to be very close...might be simpler to modify...

AND has anyone had Lee custom make them a 450 Bushmaster FCD??? :?: ...that is something that is also listed as being available...I have a query going their way...Price seems to be less than already made FCD's.

This toy being developed for a rather small and specialized market with most of the load development being done years ago, I feel like I came late to the dance and all the people have gone home. :o :shock: :? :lol:

THANKS again.

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Re: LeGendre Stab Crimper

Postby plant_one » Sun Jan 15, 2017 2:21 pm

please keep us in the loop on the lee FCD.

this is something i bet would be fairly popular of it were to become an option
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Re: LeGendre Stab Crimper

Postby Hoot » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:11 pm

Not everyone has "gone home". Sure, some old faces churn up from the bottom less frequently, but to be honest, a lot of the heavy lifting is done. Still seeing new faces almost every week and new ideas to go along with the expectable new (old) questions. Occasionally a new bullet gets discovered to add to the fray and on a rarer occasion a new powder. That all having been said, the 450b is still a crowd pleaser, yet to this day, it doesn't always get the respect it deserves when some gun writer is talking about thumper class AR calibers. Better than 5 years ago though.

The idea about modding the 460 S&W Lee FCD to work as a stab crimper for this caliber is Sage advice. (sorry couldn't resist)
Certainly less cutting down to get it to work. Given the stab crimp on the 450b is usually applied a little lower down the body than the mouth and the 460 S&W brass specs at 1.80 vs the 450b 1.70, You still have to take off a little from the end of the collet element.

You should do one and post the in-process images to the thread. There's always room for a better way of doing things around here.

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Re: LeGendre Stab Crimper

Postby dantheman » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:18 pm

I know some have tried the Lee 45 Colt Collet FCD.
When I'm ready to start loading I'm going to start with one of these. Here's a link to the discussion I found.

It seems like less work than modifying a 45-70 die.

http://450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13328&hilit=lee+45+colt+FCD+die

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Re: LeGendre Stab Crimper

Postby Hoot » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:58 pm

I only have two single stage presses. When producing a batch of stab crimped 450b loads, I do all the cartridges one pass at a time. IE charge a case, reach over to the press and seat the bullet. Set that cartridge in its appropriate row and column in my loading tray and repeat until all the cartridges are charged and their bullets seated. Then I set up one press for the initial taper crimp and the one beside it for the stab crimp. I then run through all the seated bullet cartridges until done. That speeds along pretty well. I used to reapply a lesser taper crimp after the stab crimp, but have found that if I don't, the little bit of induced mouth flare from the stab crimp does not make them hang up during feeding. However the second taper crimp causes the stab crimp to relax ever so slightly, apparently from pushing down on the case to induce the repeat second taper. Its hard to find the words to precisely describe that interaction between the two, but I digress (my middle name). Anyway, when I'm zipping through the mass crimping portion of the routine, it really slows down the process when I have to put the necessary number of stacked shim washers on and catch them when I slide the finished crimped round out because I forgot to slide them back over the top. More times than I care to admit, that also involves crawling around in the floor trying to find where they rolled off to. To eliminate that speed bump, I have made multiple, custom length, modded Lee FCD's for the more popular crimp locations and depths that I use. They're not that expensive, especially if you catch a sale and you can get them shipped in the same box, without additional charge. I still have my set of shim washers and occasionally use them when experimenting with a new load idea that none of my custom cut ones fits. To each they're own... In the case of a progressive press, having to deal with the shim washer(s) would negate the benefit of the progressive aspect. I don't have the need for a progressive press as I rarely produce enough volume of a single load to pay off the investment in time saved. The modded Lee FCD dies will outlast me, so the one time investment in several of them, is worth the up front cost and lastly, it removes the need to remember which number shim washers to use with a particular load recipe. I number my washers in order of ascending thickness with Micro-Dots similar to tracking how many times brass is reloaded. I have two of every thickness shim washer, each pair twice the thickness of the previous pair, so they're numbered: 1&1, 2&2, 3&3, etc. In my load recipe log, from back when I only used one modded Lee FCD, a recipe might call for 1,1,2 or 1,2,2 or 3 only, etc. I'm getting help from a therapist these days and just switch dies. ;)

For someone who is content to just change shim washers, that Lee 45 Colt die would be the way to go. Its still a PITA grinding down the crimp with jaws to just right. I your brass hasn't been annealed adequately, it take a much sharper jaw to impart a narrower indentation in the bullet after the indentation propagates through the outside and inside walls of the case. Ever look at someone standing on a trampoline? The impression from their narrow feet is much more dispersed on the lower side of the surface they are stand on. Same thing is happening inside the stab crimped cases. More pressure isn't the solution. You just wind up imparting a figure 8 distortion to the bullet, depending upon its wall hardness and fill. That's why utilizing a cannelure or driving band groove plays well with the stab crimp. the indentation on the bullet is already formed, the it takes less effort and damage to the case getting the crease driven into the relieved bullet surface.

There I went again. Another page from War and Peace on a simple subject. :roll: Believe it or not, I'm generally a quiet passenger on a long trip in the car. ;)

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Re: LeGendre Stab Crimper

Postby dantheman » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:20 pm

I've actually pondered using a progressive when I start reloading the 450. Obviously applying the stab crimp would have to be on my single stage.

It also depends on how well Lil Gun measures through powder measures. I'll try the Lee double Disk and then the Hornady
I have two Lee Load Masters. One for pistols and one right now for 223. It looks like the 450 actually will work with my 45 ACP shell plate.

Even if I can use 4 out of 5 stations, that would save a lot of time.

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Re: LeGendre Stab Crimper

Postby SAGERATER » Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:24 pm

Hopefully Lee will make one...should be simple as they already have a 284 Win...the only thing that might be a fly in the pie with the 460 S&W is the base dia 0f 0.480"...I don't know how much room is available over that diameter in the crimper body...0.020" isn't much tho'...not sure why someone didn't give Lee a try way back when...Lee has made me several tools over the years.

I made up a dummy case with the 250 gr FTX seated to the cannelure and marked a point ~0.200" below that for the crimping point.

I have some Barnes, Lehigh and Hawk bullets on order and I might try the 225 FTX, Midway has some "look-a-like" seconds.

Anyway...things are rolling along...should be making noise before the end of Jan. 8-) :D :!: :!:

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Re: LeGendre Stab Crimper

Postby pitted bore » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:21 pm

SAGERATER wrote:Hopefully Lee will make one...should be simple as they already have a 284 Win...the only thing that might be a fly in the pie with the 460 S&W is the base dia 0f 0.480"...I don't know how much room is available over that diameter in the crimper body...0.020" isn't much tho'...not sure why someone didn't give Lee a try way back when...Lee has made me several tools over the years.
...

We all wish Lee would make a useful FCD for the 450B cartridge. However, one would have to make sure that Lee makes the crimping jaws suitable for making a side/stab crimp. The standard jaws of the 45-70 and 45 Colt Factory Crimp Dies are really too wide to produce the most useful type of side crimp. This is almost certainly true of the 460 FCD also.

I doubt that the base diameter of the 460 FCD would present a problem. I'm able to insert the base of a 450B case into the 45 Colt FCD without the case touching the inner walls of the collet. It would be unusual for Lee to make the 460 FCD with the inner diameter smaller than the 45 Colt FCD.

The advantage of modifying the 460 die would be that the surgery would be less radical, with only 0.10 needed to be removed from the collet. Somebody needs to measure the die body to see whether it needs to be shortened from the threaded end. Of course, there would need to be the usual thinning of the collet jaws.

--Bob
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