450B LEE FCD

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Re: 450B LEE FCD

Postby Hoot » Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:04 pm

Bob, I think Sagerater isn't as concerned about the bite width as much as folks who implement the crimp further down the case since he is using his in the conventional way that the FCD's were designed to work. Sagerater, Bob is saying that the narrower bite is critical to function when making a crimp anywhere other than right at the mouth, which has been how everyone so far has been using it here.

Image

Each has its purpose but relies upon a different mechanism to get there. The wide crimp, which relies upon more surface area contact for the sake of friction to achieve its retention quality, will not propagate through the case very well when crimping further down the case. Too much metal to move with opposing, non-moving metal on either side. At the mouth of the case, one side of the crimping force is unopposed, much like a taper crimp. On the converse, a narrow crimp, which relies upon imprinting a small groove into the surface of the bullet for it's retention quality, will have less bullet surface area to act upon. The latter is a good match for bullets that already have a groove or cannelure in them, into which to drive that narrow ridge. Smooth side bullets may be better served by going after the increased friction attributes of the wide crimp applied at the mouth. The devil in the details is the challenge of applying that mouth crimp with enough force to generate enough friction to have a positive effect upon the bullet's retention without compromising the ability of the mouth to catch the lip at the forward end of the chamber.

Bottom line is, the Lee family of FCD dies, regardless of caliber are intended to normalize the cartridge crimp variation across a run of reloads more than add significant amounts of additional retention. That hopefully reduces velocity SD's and tightens up groups. I myself own half a dozen or so FCDs for my bottle neck calibers I reload. In most cases, they accomplish exactly that intended result. In a few they don't change it, or at least not to the degree that it helps performance. Particularly calibers that have long necks to start with.

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Re: 450B LEE FCD

Postby SAGERATER » Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:43 pm

I modified the 450B similar to what you did with the 45-70...I have a 45-70 FCD but didn't want to mess with it...might have been cheaper just to buy another 45-70 FCD and modify that one...BUT...

What I did... chucked the die in my lathe and took ~0.125" off the bottom, to just below the 450B name embossed on the die...popped out the crimper and chucked it up and ran a 60° 3/4" reamer in the mouth of the crimper a bit to give it a similar bevel to what you did...and took a picture of a crimped round...I'm in town now at the library using Wi-Fi... NOW I can't get that picture uploaded to Photobucket...it won't let me in...SH********.

I will download it if I ever find a way.

The crimp looks like the pictures you posted...the bottom of the crimp is ~0.125" below the case mouth and is ~0.070 +/- a bit wide, leaving about the same amount untouched below the case mouth( I asked Lee to do this same thing but they didn't) and the OD of the loaded round about the same as a factory round...I then ran it into a Lee 45 cal taper die I have for my 45-70 and it reduced the mouth OD to ~0.470" leaving a nice square headspacing lip...just to see how it would work.

I also put a lot more pressure on the die to put a deeper crimp.

I was happy with the original 450B FCD and just as happy with this modified one...the only way to know if either crimp is required or something in between is to do some testing which I will do in time.

Luck
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Re: 450B LEE FCD

Postby SAGERATER » Mon Feb 27, 2017 3:57 pm

Yeah...Well, I can't keep my hands to myself. Kept looking at that crimp and the more I looked, the less I liked it....SOOOOooooo...I trimmed a little more off the bottom of the crimper and crimped another round...I LIKE this one...AND TOOK ANOTHER PIC OF THE 450 B and 45-70 FCD's, the first crimped cartridge and the last crimped cartridge and bullets...it's cold and snowy so I'm not even going to try finding Wi-Fi. I have 5 different Library's to choose from within 50 miles, but ALL have the same problem with Wi-Fi reception when it's cloudy.

Measurements for the latest FCD: Measurements +/- ~0.001", +/- a bit :o :shock: ;) :lol:

1. Bottom of crimper sticks out ~0.159" - 0.160" from the base of the die body.
2. ~0.190" from case mouth to bottom of the crimp.
3. ~ 0.110" from case mouth to top of the crimp.
4. Crimp is ~0.080" wide.
5. Crimp falls about the middle of the band between the bullet base and the beginning of the ogive on Hornady 200 gr bullets and slightly below the middle between the cannelure and bullet base on the 275 Fury serrated bullets.
6. The bottom of the 45-70 crimper sticks out ~0.400" from the base of the die body.
7. BOTH die bodies are the same length...~2.20".
8. I didn't measure the crimper piece when I had it out but but dropping a case down the top and measuring with the dial caliper rod, it comes out ~1.50".
9 The 45-70 FCD crimper piece top measures ~0.535" from the top of the die body and the 450 B measure ~0.848-50" so I think it would be easier just to add a spacer to the 450 B die or buy BOTH...they're are cheaper than dirt anyway. :D
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Re: 450B LEE FCD

Postby Hoot » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:07 pm

The 450b uses a pretty common shell holder which costs a lot less than a FCD Die. I would have dropped the shell holder height and marked it as such. I actually have a shorty shell holder though its not for crimping. It for sizing to get a little more life out of cases where the case growth just above the web is approaching un-chamberable. It also makes for a little tighter neck which equals a little tighter bullet seat. I didn't go crazy or anything. Think of it as a small base sizing die option, like other calibers come in.

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Re: 450B LEE FCD

Postby SAGERATER » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:47 pm

Yeah, shell holders are cheap, but in this case a flat piece of metal for the case to set on wouldn't have been enough to get the crimp point low enough on the case in the original configuration....I don't know for certain because I didn't measure the crimper piece before hand, I basically cut and tried to get what I wanted. I remove between 0.180" and 0.200" of material I'm guessing, from the crimping piece and standard shell holders are only 0.125" "deep"...from the top of the SH to the point where the case sits....you wouldn't have anything to hold or centralize the case/rim....I have two SH's I nipped 0.005 and 0.010" off the top for specific rifles for the same reason...and 4 sets of Redding comp SH's plus a few to PLUS 0.020" to use to correct headspace issues. when I get real picky about case life.

Of course you could make a doohickey that would push the case up into the die, with a bump to fit the primer hole and an OD the same or slightly larger than the case and smaller than the ID of the die and achieve the same thing...visualize a modified RCBS military crimp remover... and a lip to activate the crimping action, but I think just removing the material from the crimper piece is quicker and simpler and all you have to do it stuff it in a lathe or drill like was done originally.

The crimp is where I want it now and the mouth of the case is ~0.480" as loaded and crimped, same as factory. When the weather clears I will load up a few and "smoke" test them

You can get a tighter of a grip on the bullet by polishing/turning down the sizer button or using a smaller sizer ring or going to a slightly larger sizer button to increase the OD of the case mouth if you think the misfires are because the case is not seating right. This case has a ~0.020" taper and it doesn't take much taper to lockup.

You might have to make a chamber cast so see just what the numbers are in relation to factory or reloads...it's NOT beyond the realm of truth that a chamber was cut oversize...or too long.

Luck
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Re: 450B LEE FCD

Postby SAGERATER » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:11 pm

Image
Hey, looks like it worked finally.

Measured two factory rounds then fired them off out the back door into the woods this am...both worked perfectly but the mouths got a bit ovaled in the process. ALL measurements were within 001" +/- 0.0005" as measured with a digital and dial mics/calipers/ball mic. Case reduced in length ~0.002" and expanded about 0.0005". Mouth of unfired measured 0.480" at two points 0.250" apart, base expanded ~0.001" after firing...unfired length 1.0701-2, fired 0.1690-1.695...couldn't get a decent fired OD/ID but guessed about 0.001-0.0015...wall thickness 0.0135". Do the math...0.0135 x 2 plus 0.452=~0.479-80".

Hornady supposedly uses a taper crimper and I'm guessing reduces the case mouth OD as small as possible to also give a tight grip, but this is only conjecture...it's what I do on all straight walled rifle/pistol cases, and a taper or roll crimp or both if required...haven't had any ignition problems with powder ignition since my first 357 and 44 Mag back in the late 50's when I followed the well established rules.

H110/296/Lil Gun are hard to ignite powders which have been thoroughly covered already, so primer selection should be a given.

Anyway this is the extent of my offerings as the weather will be getting nicer and I will be heading out using this knowledge with this particular cartridge.

Luck
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Re: 450B LEE FCD

Postby Pig_Popper » Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:18 pm

Why can't Lee custom make a FCD that the customer specifies the location and size of the crimp?

That'd be the very definition of a Custom die ...
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Re: 450B LEE FCD

Postby Hoot » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:09 pm

pitted bore wrote:
SAGERATER wrote: ... It looks like every other Lee FCD I've have/used and similar to factory ammo crimps....weather has prevented me from doing any velo or crimp/no crimp recoil testing, but I see no problem putting an adequate crimp on reloads.

SAGERATER-
Several of us are really curious about the custom FCD that Lee created for you. I'm particularly interested in the width of the crimp it creates.

Below is a photo that forum member "gunnut" posted here about seven years ago. It shows the rather narrow crimp groove that results from the usual modification of the crimping ring in the 45-70 FCD collet. A significant amount of metal is removed from the crimping ring to produce the narrow result shown in the photo.

An unmodified Lee 45-70 FCD will produce a much broader crimp that may be useful in some 450B applications. However, the narrower crimp impressed into the case seems to retain bullets better than a broader crimp.

--Bob
http://i41.tinypic.com/21cwcir.jpg


And in case you're wondering what that does to the bullets, here's some pull downs:

Image

You're welcome to a whole pill bottle full of them. I have enough paper weights. ;)

Image

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Re: 450B LEE FCD

Postby pitted bore » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:01 am

Hoot-
You shouldn't be talking about giving the bullets away when they represent a potential gold mine Turn your lead into gold (or cash).

What you have are the first-ever samples of 451-caliber Wasp-Waist Sonic bullets. Herter's developed and sold these back in the 1960s and 1970s. Here's some catalog copy from 1971:
.
Image
.
Do some tests and write up what you find. If the ad above is correct, they should outperform anything on your bullet shelf. Perhaps Hornady will contact you with a check for advance royalties.

Note: web search engines can find a fair number of hits for the Herter's bullets, including images. They are relics occupying honored space in decrepit cardboard boxes holding the supplies and components of deceased handloaders of a previous generation.

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Re: 450B LEE FCD

Postby Hoot » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:56 am

I used to wait for the Herter's catalog to come. Beat the heck out of the Spiegel's catalog. Well all except that one section. Image.

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