450 Brass options?

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Re: 450 Brass options?

Postby dantheman » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:24 pm

In New York we reload just to have a reliable supply of ammunition in some cases...lol. One never know what type of anti gun legislation our governor will force through the legislator. They've already effectively cut us off from 98% (notice I didn't say 100%) of online ammo retailers.


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Re: 450 Brass options?

Postby Colohunter » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:49 pm

That is an excellent point. I may have a hard time finding certain components, especially powders, that I use, but the simple fact that most reloading supplies come in at least multiples of 100, means that I tend to have more components and/or loaded ammo than the average shooter that goes out and buys a box or three of 20.

I would say that since I started reloading around 15 years ago, I probably spend more in total on ammo (components) than I used to, but in addition to getting ammo tailored to my needs I know that I shoot more. I place a lot of my ammo into 50 or 100 count boxes and tend to shoot multiples of 50 or 100 when I go to the range. Other than load development I tend to spend more time at the range now and definitely make a day of it, shooting a variety of calibers and more total rounds than I used to.
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Re: 450 Brass options?

Postby coyote wacker » Wed Mar 15, 2017 6:58 am

It would be nice if Starline would make brass and put a large primer pocket in .....help get the power cooking better....
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Re: 450 Brass options?

Postby Hoot » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:51 am

coyote wacker wrote:It would be nice if Starline would make brass and put a large primer pocket in .....help get the power cooking better....


You can opt to use 284 Winchester brass, but...
The 284 Win uses large primers. The downside is the resultant 450b neck wall thickness. When you cut down the 284 cases to 450b length, you're down in the body of the case and the walls are thicker. When you seat .452 bullets they push out those thicker walls and produce a bulge at the bullet end of the round that may not chamber. If you don't mind the additional touch labor, you can ream the cases. Its been done and it works. Not all brands of 284 brass have the same thickness and a few cases can be cut down and used without reaming them. The devil is in the details however. Large rifle primer pockets have less brass between them and the rim. That can lead to them stretching and getting loose primer fits after a couple of hefty loadings. I have some of the thinner walled 284 brass and have experimented with loading them using large rifle primers. Remington 9 1/2 to be precise. I saw no additional improvement in performance using them over the standard 450b cases and Remington 7 1/2 primers pushing Lil Gun loads. That was just my experience. Loading with heavier projectiles and slower powders may gain some performance via a large rifle primer. There is a circumstance where too much primer can actually push a bullet with not much neck tension out of the case and into the leade before the powder gets cooking. The result is exactly the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish. The powder will not fully ignite and you wind up with a mess when you pull the bolt back to see what happened. I'm sure that I'm not the only person here who's seen the yellow ball of unburned powder peeking back out at them, from the backside of a stuck bullet, not to mention the loose umma-gumma down in your action and magazine. Image

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Re: 450 Brass options?

Postby engineer40 » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:02 am

Colohunter wrote:I think you can still save some considerable money reloading, it just doesn't take effect that first loading. Even if I buy the factory ammo for the brass, I'm still going to keep reloading the brass until I lose it, or it gets to the point it can't be reloaded anymore. They get the extra money at the front, but in the long run I will still save money and avoid buying factory ammo down the road.

For me it depends on the cost and quality of the brass vs. the loaded cost. When I put together a Remage conversion in 260 Rem for competition I bought Lapua brass (ouch) and went straight to the reloads. That barrel has never seen a factory load. With 300 Whisper and 300 Blackout I have made my own brass from range pickup .223 and never bought a loaded round or factory case.



I always buy Lapua brass for my bolt guns if Lapua produces it for the cartridge. Not because I'm an elitist (I have many cheap firearms and Lee reloading equipment), but because it really is great brass and takes a lot of time out of brass prep.

Lapua brass never gets shot out of my semi autos for me though. Semi autos are just harder on brass. And that's the rub, Hornady brass for the 450BM is just about as expensive as some Lapua brass for other cartridges. It would be nice if Starline produced some 450BM brass for sure. Maybe if we ALL emailed them with the same request on the same day? :D
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Re: 450 Brass options?

Postby commander faschisto » Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:51 pm

I've emailed Starline about the 450b and 30RAR...money talks. Unless a commercial concern promises them a massive order for either one, they're not going to bother. :(
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Re: 450 Brass options?

Postby coyote wacker » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:29 am

Hoot wrote:
coyote wacker wrote:It would be nice if Starline would make brass and put a large primer pocket in .....help get the power cooking better....


You can opt to use 284 Winchester brass, but...
The 284 Win uses large primers. The downside is the resultant 450b neck wall thickness. When you cut down the 284 cases to 450b length, you're down in the body of the case and the walls are thicker. When you seat .452 bullets they push out those thicker walls and produce a bulge at the bullet end of the round that may not chamber. If you don't mind the additional touch labor, you can ream the cases. Its been done and it works. Not all brands of 284 brass have the same thickness and a few cases can be cut down and used without reaming them. The devil is in the details however. Large rifle primer pockets have less brass between them and the rim. That can lead to them stretching and getting loose primer fits after a couple of hefty loadings. I have some of the thinner walled 284 brass and have experimented with loading them using large rifle primers. Remington 9 1/2 to be precise. I saw no additional improvement in performance using them over the standard 450b cases and Remington 7 1/2 primers pushing Lil Gun loads. That was just my experience. Loading with heavier projectiles and slower powders may gain some performance via a large rifle primer. There is a circumstance where too much primer can actually push a bullet with not much neck tension out of the case and into the leade before the powder gets cooking. The result is exactly the opposite of what you're trying to accomplish. The powder will not fully ignite and you wind up with a mess when you pull the bolt back to see what happened. I'm sure that I'm not the only person here who's seen the yellow ball of unburned powder peeking back out at them, from the backside of a stuck bullet, not to mention the loose umma-gumma down in your action and magazine. Image

Hoot


I was even thinking of trying 45 Raptor brass....only need to cut .10" off case.....

With my work on 358 Win. I found magnum primers gave lowest extreme velocity spread and highest velocities....

Starline would have no problem making 450 BM brass they made all the brass for the 45 Raptor.....
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Re: 450 Brass options?

Postby Al in Mi » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:30 am

base of a 450B case is .500 vs .475 base of a 45R case, might get a ugly looking step down by the web and might shorten up more than 1.700 when blowing that taper out.

Starline stepped up to the plate for 357 Maxi brass last fall, Jamison might be another option.
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Re: 450 Brass options?

Postby engineer40 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:37 pm

Al in Mi wrote:base of a 450B case is .500 vs .475 base of a 45R case, might get a ugly looking step down by the web and might shorten up more than 1.700 when blowing that taper out.

Starline stepped up to the plate for 357 Maxi brass last fall, Jamison might be another option.


I've been saying that Michigan laws are poised for someone to come out with a "357 Super-Duper-Maximum" with a case length of 1.8 inches and brass that is spec'ed to 65K PSI like the 460SW Magnum.

I've done a few hours of research trying to find a suitable parent case that I could trim to 1.8 inches, so that I could talk to someone like PT&G about a reamer... but my efforts so far have been futile.


Edit: I just want to point out that if I ever did come out with this wildcat, I surely would call it the 357 Super Duper Maximum. :D
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Re: 450 Brass options?

Postby Hoot » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:30 pm

engineer40 wrote:
Al in Mi wrote:base of a 450B case is .500 vs .475 base of a 45R case, might get a ugly looking step down by the web and might shorten up more than 1.700 when blowing that taper out.

Starline stepped up to the plate for 357 Maxi brass last fall, Jamison might be another option.


I've been saying that Michigan laws are poised for someone to come out with a "357 Super-Duper-Maximum" with a case length of 1.8 inches and brass that is spec'ed to 65K PSI like the 460SW Magnum.

I've done a few hours of research trying to find a suitable parent case that I could trim to 1.8 inches, so that I could talk to someone like PT&G about a reamer... but my efforts so far have been futile.


Edit: I just want to point out that if I ever did come out with this wildcat, I surely would call it the 357 Super Duper Maximum. :D


Tromix is beta testing the 358 SOCOM. Necked down 50 Beowulf just like the 458 SOCOM. The 358 SOCOM pushes a 200 gr FTX @ 2500 fps. I'm assuming the draw of that as opposed to the 450b pushing a 200gr FTX @ 2500fps (with more frontal area= more TKO) is that the 358 would yield a better BC for longer shots without shedding so much velocity. I had some leftover loads from previous experiments that I use for foulers. Some times I have experiment loads that were a charge step (or two or three) too far and that's why they were leftovers. I usually put a note in the range box saying either foulers or pull down. Anyway, When I had my range day back on the 5th, before winter returned with a vengeance, I found three 230gr FMJ with stab crimps in a range box with no note. Figured what the heck, use them as foulers. I found out why they were leftovers after the first one flew out of the barrel at 2652 fps followed by the next one at 2650 (great SD). Those should have been puled down as well even though the primers were fine and the case heads had only grown .001 after I shot them. The velocity told me they were too stiff.Too much stress on the bolt. Anyway, where I was going was, my LabRadar chrony tracked them all the way to the 100yd target board. By the time they had made it 100 yds, they were already down to 1990 and 1981fps. A loss of ~650 fps That there is testimony to the BC penalty of round nose 451 bullets. The pointy, 325 FTX bullets, while starting out slower ~1700fps, only slowed ~250 fps. Something in a 35 caliber might do better given the longer length to diameter ratio.

Hoot

EDIT: Looked them up. The Hornady .358 200 gr FTX bullet has twice the BC of the .452 200 gr FTX.
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