Problem with W296 powder

[wildcatter]

I had a couple of simular things happen with 296 back in my 454 Casull days. One of the guru's back then, suggested compression of the powder, a heavy seperate crimp and I've had no problems since with 296.

After reviewing MAD's Side Crimp pictures and now with Al's and the Doc's assertions. I'm thinking you really do not have enough crimp going on here.

In your pictures you show us a case that is .482" at the mouth, .476" is the std. and it looks like the side crimp is not deep enough. You might be right that the crimp is at the bottom of the bullet and that could part of the problem.

I am thinking that the problem here is all about the crimp and if true, 296/297 area powders are at our ragged edge for slowness in our burn rate, something I'd have never believed after all those years using 1680 in the Pro. Bottom line.. MR might be actually answering some very important data questions..

Can you supply us several side views of a pulled bullet, that has been side crimped?..

[the_mad_rshn]

Hey Wildcatter,

I am wondering if you are right. The case moth diameter is actually about .278" if I watch how much I bell the mouth with the die. So anyway. I will take the remaining twenty rounds a part. I think I will try loading a couple and I will use a case filler to compress the powder. Will see.

Thanks to all again.

Cheers,
Mad

[wildcatter]

Hey Wildcatter,

I am wondering if you are right. The case moth diameter is actually about .278" if I watch how much I bell the mouth with the die. So anyway. I will take the remaining twenty rounds a part. I think I will try loading a couple and I will use a case filler to compress the powder. Will see.

Thanks to all again.

Cheers,
Mad

Wait up a minute, don't pull anything down just yet. Do you have a 45 ACP taper crimp die? And, can you get us that side view of one pulled bullet from a side crimped cartridge, make sure you've got the lighting done well. Pitted Bore has a posting that explanes really great lighting, anyway, this is to help us really see what might be going on and you don't want to tear down the evidence before its time to reload, and you don't need to be reloading yet...we've got to understand what is happening here.

[wildcatter]

Ok, I gotten a reply from my colleague, he is also a serious front-line Ballistician. Here is his reply and then my reply to him with another question..

..""Yep, obviously the powder is not being properly ignited. The yellow powder is where the graphite got flashed off, yellow is the natural color of powder.

1. Contamination in the case, a drop of oil, water, lube, etc. inhibiting the
ignition of the powder.

2. Obstruction of the flash hole not allowing the primer fire to get thru. Corncob
in the flash hole comes to mind or a large burr.

3. Faulty or contaminated primers. Maybe small pistol primers instead of small rifle""...

My additional question? ..""I myself, after a more lengthy interview, now think, he had little or no crimp. I think this could be a culprit, what say you?""..t

I'll be out of town tomorrow, so it might be a day or two before I can get back on this mystery, hang in there Mad and don't tear down that ammo yet, save one round for pictures, AND, if you can, get us a picture of the powder from that tore down case, just like you did the other day on the defective ammo..

[wildcatter]

Well, how about this, he is working late tonight and answered me right away. His answer to my question, from the previous posting is as follows..

..""Possible but I would hope neck tension alone would be enough to get it started. But mag pistol powders are a little harder to light so it good to get all the help you can and crimp is one of those""...

The plot thickens. SO, for now, work on that crimp, get us the pictures, and check for the things that may be keeping the powder from burning properly, as has been suggested..

[the_mad_rshn]

- The powder is clean. I used a freshly opened can with the same results. Plus as I mentioned it worked fine with heavier bullets.

- The flash holes had no obstructions in them. I always check for it. A habit.

- Primers are good. I used them many times and the primers from the same 100-pack worked just fine with heavier bullets.

Here is a picture of a bullet. You can see it has some crimp marks on then and also notice that the crimp is actually all the way at the end of the bullet. Makes me think there is not enough left for the bullet to actually sit firmly in place.

[pitted bore]

I cannot push the bullet in manually, but I cannot tell you how difficult it is to pull it out because of the latter.

Mad-
If you have on hand an inertia bullet puller (hammer-looking thingy), it might be possible to get a rough (very rough !) estimate of the crimp strength by seeing how much force (=amount of banging) is required to get the bullets to drop out of a case. Lotsa banging to get the bullet out of the case indicates a really good crimp. If it only requires a couple of gentle taps to extract the bullet, that probably indicates a weak crimp. You could calibrate the required banging for a strong crimp by trying to take apart a factory round.

--Bob

[wildcatter]

- The powder is clean. I used a freshly opened can with the same results. Plus as I mentioned it worked fine with heavier bullets.

- The flash holes had no obstructions in them. I always check for it. A habit.

- Primers are good. I used them many times and the primers from the same 100-pack worked just fine with heavier bullets.

Here is a picture of a bullet. You can see it has some crimp marks on then and also notice that the crimp is actually all the way at the end of the bullet. Makes me think there is not enough left for the bullet to actually sit firmly in place.

[ http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/the_mad_rshn/bullet-after-crimp.jpg ]

That crimp could be a little deeper, but really it doesn't seem all that bad. The crimp is awfully close to the base of the bullet and any distortion, at all, to the base of the bullet, will cause fliers. The Doc has another good idea, try comparing how mush pull it takes to pull the bullet of a factory load and then yours. Bang it against something solid, steel, cement, but use the same media for both cartridges. Truth be told, the factory taper crimp, pulls far to easily for me (especially compared to my side crimp) and the factory loads using 297 (a slower powder than 296), doesn't seem to have any problem at all..

[MOUNTIN DU]

Partial ignition... hang fires & stuck bullets... Your in the danger zone!!! there's some real experts here and I'm not a 450b reloader yet... but after 35+yrs of reloading .44mag & .45lc +p included, using W296 & H110, I think the problem has already been answered by PB & WC. Elmer Keith warned us about the ball type powders, light bullets & light crimps way back then. Stuck cylinders and unburned powder in the bore were noticable at times in handguns with "loose" loads... when the same round is loaded into a levergun with a long lead & light crimp the same results can occur. Throw in a load that's not compressed (296 & 110) and the recipe is poor ignition and a stuck bullet. The lightly crimped, short light weight bullets can clear the case mouth before the charge is fully ignited thus fusing the powder together without really setting it on fire. Charge weight maybe too light. I've resolved those same issues by using a firm crimp & compressing the charge. Magnum primers & a charge adjustment can help solve this problem too but you better know how to read pressure signs in your gun/load combo. No liability expressed or implied here!
I'm interested in the results, because I plan to reload my 450b with .452 230gr hardballs using H110 and/or Lil gun. I've formulated some recipes but haven't assembled them yet. Still waiting to free up some factory brass.
This is the very reason I still use 150grs of loose pyrodex with a "firm" bullet seat in my muzzleloaders instead of pellets. Consistant reliable "ignition". Your favorite recipe is useless & sometimes dangerous if you can't light it!

[wildcatter]

Well said and well understood, Du..