450 Heavy For Caliber and Subsonic

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450 Heavy For Caliber and Subsonic

Postby Herker » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:13 am

Have a couple years pouring over this site and want to thank everyone for their contributions.
About the same time I was working up this post in Word I saw the post by Rklenke, good post bud, going to pick up some of that Shooter’s World Blackout if I can find any.

I do a lot of night hog hunting throughout the year and would like to have a heavy and viable round that is subsonic. I figured if the .458 SOCOM could do it, so can we.
I do not want to pay for some designer bullets aka Black Butterfly.

http://www.450bushmaster.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16120&sid=6db26b5d703dfc8474e066907443896d

I love large calibers and the heavy bullets that go along with them.
When I look around different forums I see a smattering of people searching for heavy bullet data for the .450 Bushmaster but it is a hunt and peck search still for this “young” caliber.

USE AT YOUR OWN RISK, this goes without saying and I appreciate any challenges to data in this experimental area:

I do not want to change springs unless it comes down to a requirement. (as of 3/22 I am still waiting on my suppressor but will go back and edit results as such, guessing July before I get it, .45 HYBRID).

Firearm: 16”, 1-24 Twist, Home Built, .451 slugged.
May be adding a 1:16 AR-556 18” Ruger for my daughter. But using the above for testing because I figure if a 1-24, 16” stabilizes the bullet, then the 1-16 will do so as well. Mid-length Gas system.

According to velocity calculators the 1-24 will have a gyroscopic stability (SG) of 1.47 at 1,080fps when firing our upper end of bullet weights…525 may be a push. This is at the upper end of marginal stability as an SG of 1.5 is recommended, so we will need also indicate in the loads if the bullet keyholed. A 1-16 barrel will give an SG of 3.32 with the same data as above, So the 510 Hunter Supply will act as my focus. This is a readily available cast bullet as I do not cast or powder coat my own.

I have .454, .452 and .451 swagers. Jacketed bullets are brought down in three steps, Cast in two.
Due to readily available, I purchased the following projectiles.
1. “350 OT” - 350Gr Oregon Laser Trail - .452 - .921 Long after sizing (LAS)
2. “400 Speer” - .4515 - .987 LAS
3. “405 OT” - 405Gr Oregon Laser Trail - .452 – 1.025 LAS
4. “405 BT” - 405g WFNGC Beartooth – On Order (reading varying opions on firing through a Supressor, seems like a potentially bad idea to me).
5. “510 HS” - 510Gr RNPB Hunter’s Supply - .452 - 1.34 LAS, These actually weigh about 512gr on average. Do not seat these past a COL of 2.236 (in my rifle), as the bullet will hit the lands.
6. “525 BT” - 525g WFNGC Beartooth Piledriver - On Order


Powders Avaialble:
IMR4198, IMR4227, Trailboss, AA 2015, AA 2495, VVN120C, VVN32C (Tinstar), Lil’Gun, MP300, 296, BLC-2, H380, H414, RL7, lots of others and shotgun powders (Wife says the basement looks like a Cabelas).

Have lots of other powders if you think there are other viable alternatives for good fill and burn percentages. Obviously we have very different powders to push a 200gr vs a 525gr!
As a side note, I find it amazing that this cartridge can push a 180gr projectile up to a 525gr projectile (albeit has its sweet spot). Again, I stress to anyone, that this is a highly experimental area and to validate and use any of this data at your own risk. Like anything on the internet, VERIFY!
In the loads below I did not have any noticeable case head growth, so I did not record it.
Even in the 400gr supersonic load below I had no discernable case head growth deviation from normal, probably because I am only aiming for the 40kpsi line or below.

For all loads below:
Brass: Starline Brass used in all loadings @ 1.69” case Length
Primer: Rem 7 ½ used in all loadings unless noted
Crimp: .4755 Taper and Stab Crimp Placed in an available Cannelure.
For the QL data, I resized the 400g Speer for most and checked by resizing the 500gr .458 down to .452 (Cast) or .4515 (Jacketed). Brass held 61g of water, So a lot of loads came in under what QL predicted from a default of 60g of water.

Load 1 – Fired, No Suppressor / Suppressor Data When It Comes
Bullet: 350g OT
Powder: 13.5g - Trailboss
OAL: 2.13
QL Predicted Pressure, FPS, %Fill, %Burn – 27,849 psi, 1,076 fps, 96.3%F, 100%B
Chronograph Readings: 1080, 1060, 1073 SD: 10.1
Ambient Temp: 40F
Group Size: 1.5” @ 80Yd, Bullets stabilized,
Cycle Action: No, Bolt Barely Moved, Manual Extraction Easy, Very Clean, very very quiet and light recoil. Would be GREAT in a bolt gun for a kid or if you don’t mind manually cycling an AR.

Load 2 – Fired, No Suppressor / Suppressor Data When It Comes
Bullet: 350g OT
Powder: 14g Tin Star
OAL: 2.13
QL Predicted Pressure, FPS, %Fill, %Burn – 31600 psi, 1,082 fps, 74%F, 100%B (Under 80% Fill)
Chronograph Readings: 1124, 1130 SD: 4.2 (Only picked up two on chrony)
Ambient Temp: 40F
Group Size: 1.5” @ 80Yd, Bullets stabilized,
Cycle Action: No, Bolt Barely Moved, Manual Extraction Easy, very very quiet and light recoil. Clean Load, would be GREAT in a bolt gun or for a kid, trailboss above was cleaner in Load 1.
Trailboss is right in the wheelhouse for a 350g bullet at subsonic.

Load 3 – Fired, No Suppressor / Suppressor Data When It Comes
Bullet: 400g Speer
Powder: 15.5g Tin Star
OAL: 2.17
QL Predicted Pressure, FPS, %Fill, %Burn – 39,650 psi, 1,078 fps, 84%F, 100%B
Chronograph Readings: 1061, 1083, 1068 SD: 11.2
Ambient Temp: 40F
Group Size: 1.5” @ 80Yd, Bullets stabilized,
Cycle Action: No, Bolt Barely Moved, Manual Extraction Easy, very quiet and light recoil.
Very Clean Load, would be GREAT in a bolt gun or for a kid.
TrailBoss was tested under a 400g Speer, but only reached 880, 860, 870…did not cycle.
Conclusion…this would be my go-to in a bolt gun for subsonic with Tin Star and 400g.
Maybe a suppressor will add enough back-pressure to cycle.

Load 4 – Fired (Not Attempting Sub-sonic), no sup., just looked like a good combo to zing a 400gr bullet.
Bullet: 400g Speer
Powder: 35g AA 1680
OAL: 2.17
QL Predicted Pressure, FPS, %Fill, %Burn – 39,633 psi, 1,584 fps, 88.7%F, 92%B
Chronograph Readings: 1490, 1460, 1477 SD: 15
Ambient Temp: 40F
Group Size: 1” Group…Very Clean, good well balanced load. Darn good Heavy Load, Bullet Stabilized. Replicates ~4570 light loading in recoil.
This may be a new go to load to add to my 275gr barnes and 200gr barnes!
Cycle Action: Yes, With Authority. Lots of room to go with this in a bolt gun I believe.
Case head growth - NO.

For the loads below…FOCUS Projectile.
Bullet: 510gr HS. 1.34” Long,
Case: 1.69”
All below OAL: 2.235”
QL Predicted Pressure, FPS, %Fill, %Burn: Options Below
Removed SD as I only loaded 2 rounds per loading due to expense and first round pass to see if action would cycle or bullet would stabilize.

Important Note on Crimping: As you can see the 510grn projectile is seated deeper then where it is at .452" so you MUST adjust your taper crimp to just bring the case mouth down to .475 with very little pressure from the press. Then you have to use a stab crimp in an appropriate groove. I chose the middle groove, no particular reason its just where it fell on my blocked up Legendre Crimp setup with a spacer.

510 Grain Hunter's Supply seems to be the ticket, but what a beautiful monstrosity! (Beauty is in the the eye of the beholder).
Image

Load 5 – Fired, No Suppressor / Suppressor Data When It Comes
Bullet: 510Gr Hunters Supply
Powder: 22g IMR 4198
QL Predicted Pressure, FPS, %Fill, %Burn – 27,500 psi, 1,109 fps, 96.2%F, 88%B
Chronograph Readings: 994, 1030
Ambient Temp: 40F
Group Size: 2” group @ 80yd, bullet stabilized.
Cycle Action: Ejects brass, but would not pick-up next round (close), no lock back.
Third round wouldn’t chamber.. Bell further, scraped lube to case mouth. Revisit this load as it was very clean.
Move up to 24gr and try again.

Load 6 – Fired, No Suppressor / Suppressor Data When It Comes
Bullet: 510Gr Hunters Supply
Powder: 20.5g VV N120C
QL Predicted Pressure, FPS, %Fill, %Burn – ~26kpsi, 1,000 fps, 97.3%F, X%B Paper got wet.
Chronograph Readings: 961 (only loaded one), clean, other got wet.
Ambient Temp: 40F
Group Size:
Cycle Action: No, but ejects brass and cocks hammer, not far enough back to pick up next round, no lock-back.
Note….Come back to this one and go up to 21.5g, QL says 21.5=1,084

Load 7 – Fired, No Suppressor / Suppressor Data When It Comes
Bullet: 510Gr Hunters Supply
Powder: 22.9g RL7
QL Predicted Pressure, FPS, %Fill, %Burn – 29,000psi, 1,120 fps, 93%F, 89%B
Chronograph Readings: 1,025; 1,035
Ambient Temp: 40F
Group Size: 1” at 80yd. Stabilized.
Cycle Action: YES! Ejected and loaded next round, locked back.
Clean firing, tight group, cycles action firmly unsuppressed. Step up to 23.5g next loading…try to find 1,100fps.
This one is looking good. Will focus here.

Only surprise I had on the above loads was how much louder the loads that opened the action were compared to the early Tin-Stare (N32C) and Trailboss loads that did not open the action. Definitely developing an ear for how far an AR action opens based on how loud it is when dealing with subsonic.

More to come…just got in the 405gr Oregon Trail Laser cast, have not loaded yet.
However, I think to get enough backpressure with slower powders the 500grain range projectile will be required.

When my suppressor comes in I will be posting more data back to this post.

Let me know if there are other combinations I should consider. I have just steered clear of the 500gr jacketed .458 due to the sizing effort I think will be involved as well as the limited opportunity for any expansion.

I need to get some gel and fire a couple of the lead 510hs into them at 1100fps to see if it does anything, but I don’t expect much with regards to expansion.

Thanks,

Herk
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Re: 450 Heavy For Caliber and Subsonic

Postby Bmt85 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:21 pm

Nice work!

Question, did you open up the gas port? With trying to run big heavy bullets with a small powder charge, on a midlength gas system, I'm thinking your going to want to get as much gas through that system as possible. With that, you will probably also want to go with an adjustable gas block, if you plan on running subs and supers, and you don't want to change out springs and buffers.

One other thing, you might want to back off the stab crimp. That looks pretty deep, probably deforming the bullet pretty bad, then deforming it further upon firing.

I'm not trying to pick your work apart, just trying to help you get to where you want to be.

Keep up the good work.
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Re: 450 Heavy For Caliber and Subsonic

Postby Rklenke » Sat Mar 30, 2019 4:23 pm

Awesome post, definitely following. I read a lot about the SOCOM shooters using RL7 to help cycle, I may have to try and find some. I'm going to keep looking around for a heavy .452 mold so I can cast a different weight than the 500s, after looking at your data, 400 might be a good place to start.

When I get some spare cash I'm keeping in mind opening up the gas port and putting in an adjustable block, especially after my suppressor stamp shows up. Going to be a long 8 months.
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Re: 450 Heavy For Caliber and Subsonic

Postby Herker » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:27 pm

Bmt85 wrote:Nice work!

Question, did you open up the gas port? With trying to run big heavy bullets with a small powder charge, on a midlength gas system, I'm thinking your going to want to get as much gas through that system as possible. With that, you will probably also want to go with an adjustable gas block, if you plan on running subs and supers, and you don't want to change out springs and buffers.

One other thing, you might want to back off the stab crimp. That looks pretty deep, probably deforming the bullet pretty bad, then deforming it further upon firing.

I'm not trying to pick your work apart, just trying to help you get to where you want to be.

Keep up the good work.


Don't take it as picking apart work at all sir...great points and challenges bud.

I have not messed with the gas block as I really want to first see if I can just find the correct combination of components that what I have can be purely interchangeable.
Would love to be able to fire off my favorite 275gr Barnes Super-sonics during the day and just switch out to some heavy sub-sonics at night without changing anything.
If not, the gas block will be where I go to for adjustment instead of multiple sets of springs and buffers.

With regards to the stab crimp, I thought the same thing...but here is what I found.
I don't cast at all nor do I claim to have a lot of knowledge on cast boolits construction, although I love shooting them, but I was really surprised when I took a hard look at a lube groove as a non-caster. When I worked up the initial load's crimping, I scraped the middle groove out i was very surprised at the lube groove depth. I took a 510HS and scraped out the lube groove and the bullet diameter at the lube groove only measures .392-.393 with the lube removed and they are pretty darn wide, easily a 1/16", didn't measure width.

To get a good bite I had to crank the stab crimp down. The case measurement on the outside of the stab crimp is .465-6 and the mouth has about a .015-6 wall. Granted this gets thicker that far down by a couple thou, but when I looked at those numbers I didn't see how I could be hurting the bullet by having .393 diameter with crimping to a calculated .435 internal (high end crimp). Granted it looks crazy....but its functional. You should have seen the one I initially put in the bottom groove....looked like a .45acp case with a grenade launcher sitting on top lol.

To my surprise when I downloaded one it still popped out with two quick raps on my intertia bullet puller (I thought I might be pounding forever based on other experiences) with zero deformation to the rest of the bullet shank that I could see or measure. There was no measurable impact to the .393 lube groove measurement. I do think it looks worse as the stab crimp pushes all the case lube out of the groove and kind of "puckers" each side. Makes me wonder if I should scrape the lube out of the middle groove but I had no negative impact in the first loading...but that lube has to go somewhere.

Will also say, that...while it doesn't completely ruin the brass it will probably only be good for 1-2 loadings before it goes in the "fun fire" bin. Couldn't see applying a crimp like that and firing and re-crimping in the same spot more than twice. Otherwise, to me, it looks like you'd end up sending the whole top half of the round down the barrel!

Thanks for your input!

Herk
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Re: 450 Heavy For Caliber and Subsonic

Postby plant_one » Sun Mar 31, 2019 9:12 am

Herker wrote:To my surprise when I downloaded one it still popped out with two quick raps on my intertia bullet puller (I thought I might be pounding forever based on other experiences) with zero deformation to the rest of the bullet shank that I could see or measure.

Herk



thats a LOT of mass... i find heavier bullets exponentially easier to pull than lighter ones. ive pulled as light as 32 grains and as heavy as 325's. and the bigger they are the easier they come out with an inertia puller... generally speaking anyway.

my big concern when i saw the picture would be the potential damage to the case long term for moving the brass that much that far back.

ie: getting a brittle ring back there after 2 or 3 firings and ripping a case in half, especially on a non-subsonic loading. and now you've got a stuck half case in your chamber and an instant stoppage.
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Re: 450 Heavy For Caliber and Subsonic

Postby c_franklin50 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:57 pm

Herker any further updates on this project? I got my tax stamp back after almost a year and looking to do much of the same that you are for deer hunting one major easement for me is i am loading for a bolt gun with a 1:16.
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Re: 450 Heavy For Caliber and Subsonic

Postby plant_one » Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:19 pm

hornady has the new sub-x ammo out... 395gr subsonic expanding bullets.


dont see any reloading bullets yet, but i'm sure its only a matter of time before they release them and some subsonic data to go with them.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifl ... r-sub-x#!/
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Re: 450 Heavy For Caliber and Subsonic

Postby c_franklin50 » Mon Feb 10, 2020 7:51 pm

plant_one wrote:hornady has the new sub-x ammo out... 395gr subsonic expanding bullets.


dont see any reloading bullets yet, but i'm sure its only a matter of time before they release them and some subsonic data to go with them.

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifl ... r-sub-x#!/



I remember seeing these but the heavier the better since velocity is fixed at 1050fps. I would like to run the 570gr Lehigh if they made it in .452
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Re: 450 Heavy For Caliber and Subsonic

Postby Herker » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:29 pm

Just got back yesterday from our annual Mississippi hog hunting.
Thanks to the slow crawl of tax stamps I got mine back after 11 months of waiting and only had a couple weeks before the trip to try and finish working up a load.

I am using a 16" upper 1:24 twist as described above with a HYBRID .46 Suppressor.

Since I didn't have a bunch of time to finish prepping a hand load, I bought 100 rounds of the Hornady Sub-X Subsonic 395gr.

These rounds functioned flawlessly with regards to cycling the action, so at least test 1 passed. I do carry a .45 super loaded with 250gr hard cast as backup anyways or for finishers.
They don't group as well as my hand loads, but the Hornady rounds were putting 1" at 100 yards on paper so good enough to be minute of pig.

The flooding made it difficult to access our prime hunting ground but on the last night the flooding finally moved out so we couId get in saw a couple good ones. Trail cam pictures of hogs swimming around and going under water to get the corn!

Had a 300+lb hog slip past me at 100 yards in the thick palmettos and trees that I couldn't get a line on.
About 20 minutes later one half that size came on the same path but gave me a nice line and stopped for a split second in a window through the trees...smack.

Boar was taken at 90 yards with the Hornady 395g and it was a complete pass through both front should blades and hide (hit it a bit high) but I only have a 1x thermal. Was happy to see the penetration, but not entirely unexpected when thinking about what a low speed Remington 405gr does in my 45-70 at 1200fps.

I will post some pictures up when I get to work but I didn't see much expansion, .45 bullet hole in and through one shoulder blade and a .45 hole out through the other shoulder blade and side.
The only down side if it is one...I saw absolutely no expansion from going through skin, shoulder blade, internals and then another shoulder blade...same hole out as in.
As you would expect there was no surrounding trauma or blood bruising..."could eat right up to the hole".

Dropped the pig where it stood, pumped blood out of the wound a good five pumps on the thermal and then went still, but it still needed a final dispatch with a shot from my 1911 upon walking up even 45 minutes later.

I hope to get back to testing heavier once the weather gets nicer here in Ohio but I would like to really pursue the swaged 405 Remington, 400g and other cast 500-510g options as you can push heavier at 1100fps in the 450 and it only has to stay stabilized out to about 100yd since that's about the limit of my thermal in the palmettos and woods.

With regards to that weird mid-case crimp ring around the middle groove on the 510gr....I'm okay if I only use brass once or twice and then retire it, its about making custom loads that work for me...and still WAY cheaper than black butterfly and honestly...I'm making something you can't buy in .450 bushmaster. Trust me...the cheapskate in me hates it, but for such a custom load even if I just fire it once its worth it and I won't be using it for target shooting...just hunting those damn chisel plow hogs in a suburban area and don't want to disturb the neighbors.

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Re: 450 Heavy For Caliber and Subsonic

Postby c_franklin50 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:17 am

Herker wrote:
#1 Just got back yesterday from our annual Mississippi hog hunting. Thanks to the slow crawl of tax stamps I got mine back after 11 months of waiting and only had a couple weeks before the trip to try and finish working up a load.

#2 I am using a 16" upper 1:24 twist as described above with a HYBRID .46 Suppressor.

#3 Since I didn't have a bunch of time to finish prepping a hand load, I bought 100 rounds of the Hornady Sub-X Subsonic 395gr.

#4 They don't group as well as my hand loads, but the Hornady rounds were putting 1" at 100 yards on paper so good enough to be minute of pig.

#5 I will post some pictures up when I get to work but I didn't see much expansion, .45 bullet hole in and through one shoulder blade and a .45 hole out through the other shoulder blade and side. The only down side if it is one...I saw absolutely no expansion from going through skin, shoulder blade, internals and then another shoulder blade...same hole out as in.

#6 As you would expect there was no surrounding trauma or blood bruising..."could eat right up to the hole".

#7 I hope to get back to testing heavier once the weather gets nicer here in Ohio but I would like to really pursue the swaged 405 Remington, 400g and other cast 500-510g options as you can push heavier at 1100fps in the 450 and it only has to stay stabilized out to about 100yd since that's about the limit of my thermal in the palmettos and woods.

#8 With regards to that weird mid-case crimp ring around the middle groove on the 510gr....I'm okay if I only use brass once or twice and then retire it, its about making custom loads that work for me...and still WAY cheaper than black butterfly and honestly...I'm making something you can't buy in .450 bushmaster. Trust me...the cheapskate in me hates it, but for such a custom load even if I just fire it once its worth it and I won't be using it for target shooting...just hunting those damn chisel plow hogs in a suburban area and don't want to disturb the neighbors.

Herk


#1 my tax stamp on my vers458 came back at the 49 or 50 week point.

#2 I have a savage model 11 with a 1:16 twist 18" barrel and the vers458 on the end for another 11"

#3 what are your initial thoughts on the hornady ammo I see groups were 1" but how was the consistence and did you pull any to try and identify powder and change weight?

#4 Glad they are shooting good my rifle was once an moa gun but it has been a struggle with the new barrel.

#5 sucks you didn't see any real expansion hornady list expansion down to 900fps or 225-250 yard mark. I ran into this with my 300gr hawk spitzer on my buck this year plan to shoot some water jugs or homemade gel this spring to see whats going on with them.

#6 I will be using this as a deer rig for here in MI so I normally shoot the crease to stay away from the meat.

#7 I look forward to hearing more about what you test I would like to cast my own with one of the following moulds
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/45 ... -cavity-pp
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/45 ... -cavity-gc
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/45 ... -cavity-pb
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/45 ... -cavity-pb
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/45 ... -cavity-pb
https://noebulletmolds.com/site/shop/45 ... -cavity-pb
https://leeprecision.com/mold-dc-c457-500-f.html
the 600gr should stabilize in your 1:24 according to JBM calculator it will be right on the edge depending on conditions.

#8 As I have discussed with Hoot I think my big reloading item this year will be an AMP annealer to help preserve my brass across the board.
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