Primers

[Siringo]

Using a previously worked up load of 30.5 grs or LG, Winchester Small Rifle Primers, Hornady cases and a resized 300 gr. hornady 45-70 bullet, I set out to test velocities with 3 other primer types other than the Winchester (which is in very short supply).

I used the 300 gr bullets because that is what I had on hand. 5 shot strings

1. Winchester -- Average Veloctiy - 1892 FPS, ES -- 56 fps, SD -- 25 fps (group size 1 1/8 inches)

2. Wolf Small rifle Magnum -- Average Velocity - 1749 fps, ES -- 105 fps, Sd -- 45 fps. I had one misfire and all rounds were HANG FIRES. Thought I was shooting a flintlock! Group size 2 inches

3. CCI 450's -- Average Veloctiy -- 1734 fps, ES -- 112 fps, Sd -- 48 fps. Group size 2 inches

4. Remington 7 1/2's -- Average Velocity -- 1795 fps, Es -- 89 fps, SD -- 32 fps. Group size 1 1/2 inches.

The hang fires with the wolf primers were disconcerting! Note that the WSR primers beat the others by more than 100 fps.

[MudBug]

That makes no sense. THe Wolf primers are a favorite of the bench rest crowd because of their low SD.

[Siringo]

I don't think they like Lil'Gun. Anyone else try them with that powder? 30.5 grs is not a heavy charge. I could hear the click of the hammer -- then boom and the action cycled slowly. It was like 3 separate events.

[wildcatter]

I don't think they like Lil'Gun. Anyone else try them with that powder? 30.5 grs is not a heavy charge. I could hear the click of the hammer -- then boom and the action cycled slowly. It was like 3 separate events.

I sure hope I don't insult Siringo with the following questions as he's been around the horn a long time now and is no Chechako (look it up) by any stretch, so really these questions are for the more novice of us.. Were the primer pockets cleaned. If one doesn't clean them of the fouling from the previous reload the primer is seated by the firing pin striking it and thus absorbing much of the transfered hammer energy? Or really, I'm thinking about something I learned many Moons ago. I do not keep primers any where near the area I have spray oils, like the various guns oils in a spray can. I ruined a ton of primers this way and they were all in the original packaging. Seems that the oils carried in the spray medium have great penetrative ability and we all know that oils are the tools of trade if you want to deactivate either powder or primers. Any chance this could be the root cause or maybe defective primers??..

[Siringo]

I don't think they like Lil'Gun. Anyone else try them with that powder? 30.5 grs is not a heavy charge. I could hear the click of the hammer -- then boom and the action cycled slowly. It was like 3 separate events.

I sure hope I don't insult Siringo with the following questions as he's been around the horn a long time now and is no Chechako (look it up) by any stretch, so really these questions are for the more novice of us.. Were the primer pockets cleaned. If one doesn't clean them of the fouling from the previous reload the primer is seated by the firing pin striking it and thus absorbing much of the transfered hammer energy? Or really, I'm thinking about something I learned many Moons ago. I do not keep primers any where near the area I have spray oils, like the various guns oils in a spray can. I ruined a ton of primers this way and they were all in the original packaging. Seems that the oils carried in the spray medium have great penetrative ability and we all know that oils are the tools of trade if you want to deactivate either powder or primers. Any chance this could be the root cause or maybe defective primers??..

Insult???? Hardly -- excellent questions and I was hoping that I would get some inquires.

1. My case preparation is:
a. Tumble after firing and before sizing to remove sand/ect.
b. Size (I use Imperial sizing wax on my fingers) -- cases are not deprimed at this stage
c. Tumble again to remove sizing lube
d. Deprime and clean primer pockets (with a hand held tool that I have). Also at this stage, any tumbling media is removed from the flash hole.
e. Brush clean necks
f. Expand necks
g. Clean necks with Alcholol swab (to assist in bullet tension)

I do extra steps with the necks only on the 450 for bullet tension.

Note on the primer pocket cleaning is I use a small tool from Sinclair to make sure all the pockets as the same depth -- so they are very clean.

The Wolf primers where fresh out of a sealed box. I googled "Wolf Primer Quality" and came up with complaints and well as praise. One thing that was mentioned that the primers are a little harder to insert and the possiblity exists that the primer is not fully seated. I check all of this to make sure the primer is not above the case head, but maybe from the tightness, they are not deep enough. I will check this out again.

Wildcatter -- I remember you mentioning the lube issue before -- did someone else have this same problem?

[wildcatter]

Yes, there have been others that have contaminated their stash of primers, which makes me think I'm not the only Goof-Ball. And for those others reading this, look at Siringo's methodology and learn it well..

[Siringo]

What is odd about this issue with the wolf primers, is the velocities are not that far off the other makes. Which means the bullet got up to speed before it left the barrel. However, ignition was slow and port pressure was low -- compared to the others. Wierd!

[wildcatter]

What is odd about this issue with the wolf primers, is the velocities are not that far off the other makes. Which means the bullet got up to speed before it left the barrel. However, ignition was slow and port pressure was low -- compared to the others. Wierd!

I hope Dr. Phil is reading this, for it points much that is weird in this pursuit. Question Siringo: How were you holding your tongue? Was it sticking out the left or right side..wink..

[BD1]

If this was all well quantified "straight" science, it wouldn't be a very interesting hobby. It's the mystery that still remains, after hundreds of years of research, that holds my interest.
BD

[pitted bore]

Siringo-

Thanks for your time and effort in running the test. The 100 fps advantage to the WSRs was surprising, and the ranked results run counter to some common internet lore on SR mag primers. The Wolf marketers are saying the new Wolf SR223 are a tad hotter than the Wolf magnums; one wonders where the Federal 205s would fit.

Early in my 185-grain tests, I encountered some hang fires with CCI BR4s and Lil'Gun, so I moved to the WSR primers. These cured the problem with Lil'Gun. I'm using my stash of the older nickeled Winchester primers, and I'm hoping nothing will change when I'm finally forced to the newer brass versions. I'll probably find out about the Federals in my own experiments.

There are probably excellent reasons for Hornady's use of the Winchester primers in their development of 450B loads and I wish they had described for us what those reasons might be.

--Bob