.451 BULLETS???

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Re: .451 BULLETS???

Postby BigBore Newb » Tue Dec 15, 2009 8:13 pm

Well, if its not "ideal" to shoot .451 bullets why the heck was .452 chosen considering that most 45 cal handgun bullets are .451?? Especially the good ones like Barnes. The only .452 I'm seeing is Hornady XTPs. Now that I mention it, why are there .451-.454 for 45 Colt, 454 Casull, and the 460 S&W...that just doesn't make any sense. How is one supposed to know what diameter to use if they have a revolver?? :shock:
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Re: .451 BULLETS???

Postby wildcatter » Wed Dec 16, 2009 12:09 am

BigBore Newb wrote:Well, if its not "ideal" to shoot .451 bullets why the heck was .452 chosen considering that most 45 cal handgun bullets are .451?? Especially the good ones like Barnes. The only .452 I'm seeing is Hornady XTPs. Now that I mention it, why are there .451-.454 for 45 Colt, 454 Casull, and the 460 S&W...that just doesn't make any sense. How is one supposed to know what diameter to use if they have a revolver?? :shock:
It is ideal to shoot 451's. You've got to remember that there are +- std's for the bullets and barrel. The .454" std is an old western std and is usable by us if you resize them to 452, but even then, when you do resize them, you'll still have a variance and some will be 451- to 452+. The other numbers you mentioned, 454 casuall and 460S&W are the .samii spec bullets for .4515". .451 Bullets and .452 bullets are all the right stuff, use and abuse'em, you'll be fine and doing the right stuff..
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Re: .451 BULLETS???

Postby gunnut » Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:54 am

Barrels make great swedging tools! LOL!.....................Don't try this at home!
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Re: .451 BULLETS???

Postby Al in Mi » Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:29 am

wildcatter wrote:
Al in Mi wrote:Speaking of the 230gr FMJ's, who makes the thickest and thinnest jacketed ones?

Just thinking, but at the speeds one can get in the 450B they might make a dandy hunting round.


Well Al, for hunting, expansion isn't even much of a consideration at all really. Think of the 45cal slug as an expanded 30cal, except the expanded 30 cal
l really starts to slow down fast in flesh as it is expanding and creating all that increased drag and expanded bullets go in any direction after the initial hit (including even right back out the way they went in, yep I have a three inch scar on my cheek, a really great dueling type scar, but caused by a bullet that came right back at me, fired from a 45 Pro), and not necessarily through the vitals. Whereas the 45fmj's just keep on traveling through the tissue and the overall effect is far more trauma, with far more total tissue damage, over the length of a far deeper wound channel and in a straight line going through the tissue. I've not seen nor heard of any deflection in the body. Hence, why I love the flat point FMJ's, in my experience the flat points disrupt much more tissue than an expanded bullet does, provided the flat point does not expand and the bullet holds together. So, I read with great anticipation to the developments the guys are having here with hard cast, gas checked bullets, cheap and effective and the way some of these guys are going, we're going to get all the accuracy and reliability one could ever need.

FYI.. to the cast guys. I talked to a big cast bullet outfit a couples of years ago, they also plate them, about a 44 cal bullet (.429"), plated with enough material to than be swagged back to .4515" (now sporting a .023" jacket, which is tremendous, considering the the std jacket is 3-7 thou), making a flat point as tough as a solid, but in mass as cheap as lead bullets and at my pricing, passed along to our guys, really cheap. The idea was to effect everything I personally think works in the Hunting fields, not necessarily tremendous accuracy but really good accuracy, and we could drive them pretty fast too (I'm after 400+yd clean kills and I personally know this and even more yardage is realistic). If you guys come up with a bullet you like and works well, we can get these made on the cheap, if we buy by the ton. Bottom line here is you'd have to have a design you really like, because the start-up cost are fairly steep, but the production stuff is cheap, real cheap. Any thoughts?


Catter, I totally agree with the flat points disrupting tissues seeing it's the nose of the bullet doing all the work, cast handgun hunters have known that forever. ;)

Put me on that list for those heavy plated bullets, the only ones I've seen with that thick of plating have been the Speer Gold Dots.
and I'd think a trunacated cone nose would feed great.

BTW, we still need to hook up one of these days :P

I've been shooting a few of the 40cal Powerbonds this past fall in my muzzys, http://www.powerbondbullets.com/index.html , they have a pretty heavy plating compared to the Rainiers, just laking a hair test at the moment.
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Re: .451 BULLETS???

Postby wildcatter » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:07 pm

Yup Big AL, I love the 230fmj- Truncated Cone's of either Hornady or Nosler.

Do toughs Gold Dots really have that thick of a jacket (.023")? Can someone tear one down and measure it for me? I am probably wrong, but if they are an expanding bullet it should have a fairly thin jacket, me thinks??

When I get back we'll bust some caps..
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Re: .451 BULLETS???

Postby Al in Mi » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:56 am

wildcatter wrote:Yup Big AL, I love the 230fmj- Truncated Cone's of either Hornady or Nosler.

Do toughs Gold Dots really have that thick of a jacket (.023")? Can someone tear one down and measure it for me? I am probably wrong, but if they are an expanding bullet it should have a fairly thin jacket, me thinks??

When I get back we'll bust some caps..


L-R........ 250gr XTP, 240gr XTPmag,(300gr versions are the same construction) 300gr Speer Unicore, 300 Speer Gold Dot, 300gr .458 Speer Unicore.

This link has the thickness of various bullet jackets
http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com ... 735&page=1

Image

Here is a link off one of the muzzleloader sites, http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB ... t=gold+dot

shot in dirt, but still gives a idea of how they expand.
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Re: .451 BULLETS???

Postby wildcatter » Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:09 am

Huh, That Bullet Plating Outfit told me they do about 7 thou on the hard cast bullets. The ones' you show here and according to the sited-site they are very thick indeed. I'll talk to that Outfit at the shot and see whats up. I was thinking a hard cast flat-point that had a very thick platting on it would not expand, I still think so, but looks like more research is necessary. Thanks Al, you're the greatest!..
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Re: .451 BULLETS???

Postby Al in Mi » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:39 pm

.007 might be all that's needed on a hardcast, I wouldn't expect it to expand, but she sure would penetrate.
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Re: .451 BULLETS???

Postby wildcatter » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:39 pm

Al in Mi wrote:.007 might be all that's needed on a hardcast, I wouldn't expect it to expand, but she sure would penetrate.


Yeah! Your Right! I forgot, with my idea of a "Hard Cast" 44cal (.429") plated to say .454" would give us a jacket of .025", then swagged back to say .452", well, dat go-na hurt.. And with flat point (maybe an LBT type) that do not expand, will be VERY effective (terminally) and good cheap stuff to boot and can be driven to higher speeds. Couple this with the Kill Bullet I'm developing and we'll have all the bases covered.

Now, what bullet do we want? We could do several, but the jury is still out on light bullets, not with me but others have different ideas, that can not be dismissed. So, we know 250gr and up does fine and after about 350gr we start to get into diminishing returns, I mean we do ok with 400gr+, but the unknown ranges become critical after 200yds (try hitting anything after 200yds with a 600gr 458 socom-ON! Ok, how about 50+ yds, not that you can't kill with it but Jezz, unknown ranges just becomes impossible!). I personally am looking at fast movers that will give me 300yds+ with a power reserve to decide any issue at the longer ranges, but that's just my opinion. I'm thinking of a say 285gr to start, then when we end the debate, maybe a 185-200gr(??) could be added to the line up that might include a 350gr on the upper end, keeping BD and his Merry Band of Cut-Throat Lead Dippers and you know who all I'm talking about (gotta watch that type you-know). Keep in mind, with a 185 hard cast with a very thick jacket, should be approaching the length of our 250gr and this new 285 should be at least as long as a 300 grainer. Hey this might be interesting, cheap target Fodder, that is still very effective on any thing on earth and some expensive stuff (The Kill Bullet), that is into extreme Over Kill, for when you expect the chips to be totally against you. Humm.. Looks like I have a mission at this years SHOT.. What are your thoughts??
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Re: .451 BULLETS???

Postby Al in Mi » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:52 pm

I think me and you HAVE to meet!!!!

Fill your pockets with those bullets from SHOT, my interest is peaked to no end now. :mrgreen:
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