Newbie question?

[wildcatter]

Hey Pit and Knuckles, the fcd for the 45acp is a taper crimp and is the die I used to crimp the 45 pro in the beginning. The real question is... does the 45colt and 454 Casual have a stab crimper, the same crimp as their 45-70 FCD has. If it does we may be able to use it and yes their add statement is confusing. I tried to call their listed dealers, but none of them even knew what I was talking about, no-joy there. Guess we won't know until after the holiday..t

T-
Thanks for chiming in. A couple of comments/questions:

{1} Does your Lee Factory Crimp die for the 45ACP produce a taper crimp in a different way than the Hornady? I'm asking because I know that the Hornady taper crimp die can over-crimp cases causing the case mouth diameter to drop below specs. Maybe the operation of thel Lee die is too complex to explain in text.

I'd be willing to fork over the cost of the Lee die if I can be assured it works differently than the Hornady and and if it works well. The fact that the Lee die haa some carbide in it seems to indicate its crimp action is operating differently than the squeeze the Hornady puts out.

{2} As a guess, the Lee Factory Crimp Die for the 45 Colt/454 Casull is a roll criimp die, and not the collet/stab crimp type of die. The ad blurb says "Revolver dies roll crimp with no limit as to the amount."

--Bob

Hey Pitted-Bull Bob,..

No, the Taper Crimp is just that, a Taper. They are all supposed to work the same. If your Hornady Taper Crimp Die can resize under the standard and thus not pick-up the chamber end, with the case mouth, there is something wrong and the die is an Ops. The design of that die is supposed to be such, that you could put on a ton of crimp, say a 1/2" or more and still catch the case mouth on the chamber end. Bobber, when you put on the undersized Taper Crimp, with your die, does it pass my "Thunk" Test? You might want to compare the sound to a factory round.

For you guys that have not read it, over on Cal-Guns and here, I suggested a useful tool.. "Thunk Test", your loaded case when "DROPPED" into a vertical barrel, better have a very discernible "THUNK", when it bottoms out on the chamber. This is useful in all manor of trouble shooting..t

[pitted bore]

Hey Pitted-Bull Bob,..
No, the Taper Crimp is just that, a Taper. They are all supposed to work the same. If your Hornady Taper Crimp Die can resize under the standard and thus not pick-up the chamber end, with the case mouth, there is something wrong and the die is an Ops. The design of that die is supposed to be such, that you could put on a ton of crimp, say a 1/2" or more and still catch the case mouth on the chamber end. Bobber, when you put on the undersized Taper Crimp, with your die, does it pass my "Thunk" Test? You might want to compare the sound to a factory round.
{snip}

T-
I tried the heaviest possible taper crimp my Hornady die could produce last June, when I was playing with 296 under the 185-grain bullets. The cartridges passed the Thunk test, but just barely. I wrote the following about that experimental adventure:

Because it seemed obvious that the loads with 296 were not producing enough pressure, I decided to try a strong crimp, which can increase bullet pull and therefore pressure. I loaded up a series of two cases each with the same powder charge as in Part 2: 45 through 49 grains.

For this series, I applied the maximum crimp that the Hornady taper crimp die produces. When I did this, the bullets were visibly distorted from the case pressing inward; in fact, after the case brass had sprung back, I was able to turn the bullets in the cases. The case mouth was considerably under the SAAMI minimum of 0.474. Since the cartridges passed the "thunk" test (although maybe with a grade of D-minus), I decided to proceed with firing.

(Here's a link to the whole thread: http://www.450bushmaster.com/viewtopic.php?t=59)

UPDATE: What I did not write then was about the measurements with the heavy crimp, so I'll do that now.
For loaded cartridges:
Maximum SAAMI case mouth diameter: 0.480 inches
Minimum SAAMI case mouth diameter: 0.474 inches

My usual loading practice is to keep the case mouth right at 0.476 inches on loaded cartridges. To get this measurement, the taper crimp die is set considerably above the shell holder. I find the proper position by running the case into the die repeatedly, screwing the die into the press a little at a time.

When the Hornady taper crimp die is set to bottom on the shell holder, then the crimping operation results in a mouth diameter of 0.456 inches. This is 0.018 below the SAAMI minimum, which is a whole lot of reduction. While it gives a Thunk in the test, it's a pretty weak thunk. (I'm not sure I can tell a weak but safe thunk from a unsafe thunk if the neck would slip past the headspace ridge in the chamber.)

I had no problems firing the cartridges with that small mouth diameter, but that may be because the extractor held the case in position in the chamber.

Any input will be appreciated. Thanks.
--Bob

[pitted bore]

I called Lee and as to the question, .." is the 45Colt/454 Casull Factory Crimp Die, a Stab Type, like the 45-70 FCD? The answer is NO. The Lee Factory Crimp Die uses the 'ol Roll Crimp.

..t

I've copied this very helpful post of Wildcatter's from "The modifying a Lee 45-70 factory crimp die" thread. It addresses an issue raised in this thread, directly answering his question from April 1 about the 45C/454C FCD die.

So, a proper reply to the "newbie question" that HillBilly posted on March 31 is: The Lee 45C/454C FCD is not used with the 450B because it roll crimps, messing with the headspacing of the cartridges in the chamber.

--Bob

[wildcatter]

I called Lee and as to the question, .." is the 45Colt/454 Casull Factory Crimp Die, a Stab Type, like the 45-70 FCD? The answer is NO. The Lee Factory Crimp Die uses the 'ol Roll Crimp.

..t

I've copied this very helpful post of Wildcatter's from "The modifying a Lee 45-70 factory crimp die" thread. It addresses an issue raised in this thread, directly answering his question from April 1 about the 45C/454C FCD die.

So, a proper reply to the "newbie question" that HillBilly posted on March 31 is: The Lee 45C/454C FCD is not used with the 450B because it roll crimps, messing with the headspacing of the cartridges in the chamber.

--Bob

Good-Go, BB (That's Bad-Bob for the uninitiated, and he really is Bad). To reiterate with another Caution, Don't use a Roll-Crimp on straight, non-necked cases, A.K.A. 25acp through 50AE pistol cases, or any case that head-spaces off the case mouth and of course our case as well, it is too difficult to maintain head-space and can then become very dangerous. A taper crimp is the standard way to do this, and the roll crimp is a far better way to crimp, using std reloading practices, but one we don't the luxury to incorporate, but then again, I'll argue the LeGendre Side-Crimp" (LSC-Crimp), is even better than the Roll Crimp.

..t

[Hoot]

...snip...it is too difficult to maintain head-space and can then become very dangerous...snip...
..t

What's odd about Hornady's behavior is given the litigious society we live in these days. You would have thought that their "Legal Beagles" would never have allowed that roll crimp die to be included in the set in the first place. At least include a warning in the manual that came with the set. Oops, that's right. They still have not produced a manual for the set.
Sarcasm Intended

In preparation for my upper arriving, hopefully tomorrow (took a day's vacation), I loaded up some myself last night. Pretty much straight duplication of factory loads to start with, just to break in the mechanics and get a feel for how it behaves. Range report to follow...
Hoot

[wildcatter]

...snip...it is too difficult to maintain head-space and can then become very dangerous...snip...
..t

What's odd about Hornady's behavior is given the litigious society we live in these days. You would have thought that their "Legal Beagles" would never have allowed that roll crimp die to be included in the set in the first place. At least include a warning in the manual that came with the set. Oops, that's right. They still have not produced a manual for the set.
Sarcasm Intended

In preparation for my upper arriving, hopefully tomorrow (took a day's vacation), I loaded up some myself last night. Pretty much straight duplication of factory loads to start with, just to break in the mechanics and get a feel for how it behaves. Range report to follow...
Hoot

Hoot-Man and everybody else, if you're going to duplicate the factory loads, I assume that's going to be with 296, cause the 297 that Hornady uses, is more difficult to obtain. What ever you do, keep the pressures up with WW296/H110. I just surveyed the results of an induced Detonation, from a light charge of 296. The detonated round was a 25% undercharge round. This is a well known happenstance with light loads, especially with 269/110. Don't worry about 296/110 it is a great powder and I recommend them and love them, just don't experiment with light loads, unless you know what you're doing. We'll talk later about what you can and cannot do with reduced loads later. I just wanted to get this warning out.

Here's the problem, I maintain that the factory loads are mild at best, if you try to start out much under the factory loading, you're setting yourself up for an Ops. If your loads have progressed enough to stop ejection or are trying to rip off the rims, that's not usually because the load is hot, it's more of a function, that the bolt is trying to open to soon, well before the case has released from the chamber and this because of the Dissipater Gas Block position. So, start out with the factory loading and don't reduce much at all.

For more info, Google, "under loaded ammunition and detonation" or something like this.

..t

[Hoot]

While I'm a fan of reduced loads, I'm fully aware of the potential for detonation in an under-filled case. I load down my .300 Win Mag to .308 for White Tails. That load took some time to optimize. My 450b loads are a pretty unexciting 37 gr of Lil Gun with the 250 FTX, which I will be chronying for the heck of it. The fun comes later, once I feel more acquainted with the caliber. I have a log book for every caliber I reload. I keep meticulous notes, as any good Engineer does. I plan on milking every ounce of scientific pleasure out of this over the course of the warm months, just like I do with my other calibers.
Hoot