Newbie question?

[HillBilly]

HillBilly-

Please accept my apologies. I wrote my answer assuming your self-description as a "newbie" was correct.

Please hang around the forum and help us become more knowledgeable about 450 reloading. Thanks.
--Bob

Dont sweat it man, I'm here to learn just like everyone else. I am all ears... You guys know this platform better than I do...

I am interested in throwing this upper on one of my 3 position lowers though. Throw in a FA carrier and presto chango... Full Boogie 450...

I can see this caliber is going to become my new vice... I am looking foreward to what we can come up with in the near future... I want to try some of the Belt Mountain Punch bullets when I win the powerball... darn things are $pen$ive.
http://www.beltmountain.com/punch.htm

[Hoot]

To answer your question. If the 45LC FCD crimps at the mouth, then it would be about .3" below the mouth on the 450B. That's a little low, but you can always add a few washers around the cartridge to crimp further up. BTW, Midway has them on sale.
Hoot

[thebrassnuckles]

what the hell is a punch bullet????? 48" of penetration?????

[wildcatter]

HillBilly-

The following is humming harmony to the tune that wildcatter sang above.

The two ctgs you mention, the 45 LC and 454 Cassull, headspace on the rim. The 450B headspaces on the case mouth, much like 45 ACP and other straight-walled rimless pistol cartridges. Compared with rimmed straight-walled cartridges, the case mouth diameter is a critical dimension; so is case length.

If you haven't reloaded rimless straight-walled pistol cartridges, you should find a good manual and read up on the problems and procedures specific to them. Many such procedures and the reasons for them will apply to the 450B.

The Hornady die set for the 450B includes a separate taper crimp die that adequately accomplishes the normal needed crimping. The Lee 45-70 crimp die is a collet-type crimper, and we considerably modify it for use with the 450B to solve some special problems. The modification results in a side crimp well away from the case mouth. This side crimp is very unlike the "factory crimp" that Lee advertises.

--Bob

You might say Ive got a few rounds under my belt... Ive sent several Square Deals back to Mike Dillon to rebuild. I'm an 07/02 SOT that does R&D and T&E on up and coming weapons systems. I also troubleshoot new designs for other MFG's...
Subgun and pistol ammo I do all progressive, Big handgun and rifle I do all single stage. 5.56 and 7.62x39 I just buy wolf. I've been slacking though...9mm is still pretty cheap...

I bit the bullet on the 450 after a good friend of mine did a piece on it in in his magazine. He went on to do a piece in a local rag after he took a Black Bear with it. It put venison in his freezer last fall also.

My biggest reason for posting this question was to see if I could just find another factory crimp die that would work without any mods. I think I've got a spare 45-70 fcd that I could throw in a chuck and turn. Or just send a dummy round to lee and get one made...

Wildcatter, Im a Northern Hillbilly

Hey That's "My" Cuz.. And us Northern HillBilly's gotta stick together..

But the question was never answered. If the 45colt fcd is not a roll crimp or a taper crimp, then it might be a usable side crimp for our application. So my question, again, is the 45colt Lee FCD a roll crimp, it used to be, and it'd be great if we could use it for our uses, but I have this nagging question, based on prior experiences??..t

[pitted bore]

OK, now I'm confused about Lee FCD's. Long post follows so you can help me sort this out.

I poked around on Lee's web site. Here's a link to a page that seems the most informative:Lee Crimp Die Page.
NOTE: There are two different types of FCD.
[1]
There's the usual collet type, which some of us have purchased in the 45-70 version and modified. We know pretty well how it works. I've got others of these on my shelves for various bottleneck rifle cartridges.
[2]
Further down the page, there's listed a "Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die" for Handgun Ammunition. This FCD is not of the collet type. For 45 caliber cartridges, it comes in two flavors: Catalog #90864 is listed for the 45 ACP, 45 Auto Rim, 45 Win Mag, 45 GAP, and the 45 Schofield. Catalog #90865 is listed for the 45 Colt, 45 Casull, and 455 Webley.

A question for HillBilly: Were you referring to this Carbide Factory Crimp Die in your first post, or to some other? If this one, could you describe how it works, please? I'm curious how it might differ from the operation of the taper crimp die that comes with the Hornady 450B die set.

Here's the blurb from the Lee catalog:

For Handgun Ammunition That Must Work! Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die
A carbide sizer sizes the cartridge while it is being crimped so every round will positvely chamber freely with factory like dependability. The adjusting screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp. It is impossible to buckle the case as with a conventional bullet seating die. Trim length is not critical so this extra operation takes less time than it would if cases were trimmed and chamfered. Revolver dies roll crimp with no limit as to the amount. A perfect taper crimp is applied to auto-loader rounds. The crimper cannot be misadjusted to make a case mouth too small to properly head-space. A firm crimp is essential for dependable and accurate ammunition. It eliminates the problems of poor ignition of slow burning magnum powders.

I'll try to attach the Lee image of this Carbide Factory Crimp Die. If in fact it operates differently than the Hornady taper crimp die, it might be fun to try it on the 450 B. It doesn't seem to be length specific, and ##90864 seems to be appropriate for the 450B case.

Thanks.
--Bob

[thebrassnuckles]

i have a LEE FCD for 45ACP.. but i dont have any 450 dies..

if you need me to try somethin let me know..i could try throwing a crimp on a facrory case..

the thing about the FCD is that it tries to resize the case as it goes down/in.. i think our beloved 450b has a slight taper that could be affected before a proper crimp is achieved.

[pitted bore]

the thing about the FCD is that it tries to resize the case as it goes down/in.. i think our beloved 450b has a slight taper that could be affected before a proper crimp is achieved.

brassnuckles-
Thank you for that response; it's very helpful in trying to understand the Lee Pistol FCD.

I'm particularly intrigued by the statement in the Lee blurb that "A perfect taper crimp is applied to auto-loader rounds. The crimper cannot be misadjusted to make a case mouth too small to properly head-space."

I know that it is possible with the Hornady taper crimp die to scrunch the case mouth enough to bring it to below specs. I'm really curious about how the Lee die operates, and how (or whether) it could produce a crimp firmer than the Hornady without over-reducing the case mouth diameter.

--Bob

[wildcatter]

Hey Pit and Knuckles, the fcd for the 45acp is a taper crimp and is the die I used to crimp the 45 pro in the beginning. The real question is... does the 45colt and 454 Casual have a stab crimper, the same crimp as their 45-70 FCD has. If it does we may be able to use it and yes their add statement is confusing. I tried to call their listed dealers, but none of them even knew what I was talking about, no-joy there. Guess we won't know until after the holiday..t

[HillBilly]

I've been looking for mine but, I'm in between gun rooms right now and everything is boxed up... I looked saturday but, I dont carry much for reloading at the gun shop. Maybe this afternoon after ingesting a half PIG I'll start digging again...

[pitted bore]

Hey Pit and Knuckles, the fcd for the 45acp is a taper crimp and is the die I used to crimp the 45 pro in the beginning. The real question is... does the 45colt and 454 Casual have a stab crimper, the same crimp as their 45-70 FCD has. If it does we may be able to use it and yes their add statement is confusing. I tried to call their listed dealers, but none of them even knew what I was talking about, no-joy there. Guess we won't know until after the holiday..t

T-
Thanks for chiming in. A couple of comments/questions:

{1} Does your Lee Factory Crimp die for the 45ACP produce a taper crimp in a different way than the Hornady? I'm asking because I know that the Hornady taper crimp die can over-crimp cases causing the case mouth diameter to drop below specs. Maybe the operation of thel Lee die is too complex to explain in text.

I'd be willing to fork over the cost of the Lee die if I can be assured it works differently than the Hornady and and if it works well. The fact that the Lee die haa some carbide in it seems to indicate its crimp action is operating differently than the squeeze the Hornady puts out.

{2} As a guess, the Lee Factory Crimp Die for the 45 Colt/454 Casull is a roll criimp die, and not the collet/stab crimp type of die. The ad blurb says "Revolver dies roll crimp with no limit as to the amount."

--Bob