DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby michael5446 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:42 pm

MOUNTIN DU wrote:for safety's sake, know your components before you make assumptions, especially when venturing into untested waters :mrgreen:

m5446... from the looks of those pic's, i assume you are able to reinstall the handguard without interference to the sensor for shooting purposes?


yes, it fits in there just fine with the stock hand guard and provides a convenient plugin...once you set it up, fire off a few stock rounds for reference "safe pressure wave" tests and adjust your reloads from there... seems kinda expensive and high tech but its an invaluable tool( just didnt buy one rifle i once wanted to cover the cost, it was worth it ;) )
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby pitted bore » Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:27 pm

MOUNTIN DU wrote:OK... after researching the inet and previous posts here the old dog learns a new thing or two. it seems that in 2003-2006 hodgdon acquired imr & win powder manufacturing and some commonalities have evolved into generalities when comparing h110 & w296 burn rates, density, finsih coatings, etc., although since that merger all the new data treats them the same
i stand by my original learnings though... don't treat them exactly the same if your powder is older than 2006. i know all my h110 was bought in the '90's, and the little w296 i have left pre-dates that. for safety's sake, know your components before you make assumptions, especially when venturing into untested waters

(For the record: MOUNTIN DU's comment above is a continuation of his recent posting in a thread on "Hangfires":
http://www.450bushmaster.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1110)

MOUNTIN DU-
With an age in the early 50s, you're way too young to consider yourself an "old dog". You took the time and made the effort to check on my assertion that W296 & H-110 are identical; the average old dog would not take that trouble, and would just call "BS" and go away.

I certainly won't contradict your hard-earned experience in finding differences between past versions of H-110 and W296.

When you get around to it, it would be interesting to know whether you find the current H-110 or W296 to be more like the older version of H-110 or of W296.

Thanks.
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby MOUNTIN DU » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:32 pm

:mrgreen: thanks pb... i actually learned a lot doing that research for my rebutal ;) i knew of the merger :? but never would've thought about them settling on one recipe and canning it under 2 or 3 different labels. :roll:
i did notice that the slow burners still had significant differences. :| makes me wonder how to approach my old load data when i replace those powders. :P
excellent learnings though 8-)
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:45 am

SAFETY FIRST!!
I have been reloading/handloading probably since I was in my early 20s, (1984). It is a fantastic activity and yes probably dangerous at times. The key is to remember to never to get cocky. Not with yourself. Not with your buddies, when it comes to creating that "perfect" load. SAFETY COMES FIRST!! Just reading the other guys' posts on reloading the 450B, and all the experimental loads and data here on this forum...I am amazed. And I am learning, STILL LEARNING every day. And I am glad that I have not yet read about anyone trashing an upper or themselves. (Although, I have seen a few comments about Chronographs spontaneously bursting into small particles.. that sux).
You may notice that I don't consider reloading a hobby. Well, for me, it is not. It is more like fixing my lawn mower or working on my tractor or stocking hay in my barn for the winter. It is a lifestyle and a chore. Hunting, fishing, archery. Around this camp fire, it is a daily activity. I may not be seated at my Rock Chucker all the time, but there are so many other steps. Brass cleaning and Preparation. Brass sizing and trimming, size sorting, case failure inspections...On and On I go... Geesh, I turned it into a ritualistic mantra. Heck, I have even converted the spare bedroom that is no longer used, into a "reloading room". LOL! So if you hear me or read about me being in the Gun Room, well thats my Reloading Room too.
But back to my point, I have been reloading for around 26 years, loading 38SP, 357Mag, 30-30Win, 32-20Win, 45ACP, 9mm, 5.56mm,
30-06,7mm Rem Mag, 7.62 X 39, Etc..
Now I will be adding the 450 Bushmaster to my list... :roll:
But I am still learning EVERY DAY. If you want to start to reload, thats great. But one thing I have learned is it is not always more economical on the front-end. It takes time. One of the main tools that I HIGHLY suggest is getting a bullet puller. When you have any doubts, its better to pull it than pop it. RCBS makes them and they arent expensive at all compared to the possible alternatives.
Where have I saved my money? Stocking up big on component inventory. Especially brass and primers. I am also starting to stock up on raw materials like pure lead. When the time comes, I can make my own bullets. Meanwhile, I love reloading! It is like being a mini-rocket scientist. Read the tests these guys are doing with the 450B! These guys are scientists!! (Although they may not think so). It is kind of like riding in on the cusp of a new round that is soon to be very popular and watching as the handloading data is literally being developed as I am looking on. But the one thing we must never forget?SAFETY!!!

I would love to open my hornady manual one day to the 450 Bushmaster, and see load descriptions for 180 grain loads up to 350 grain loads with a plethora of options in between. I like options. Keep up the good work!
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby wildcatter » Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:29 am

Here, Here, Well said TX-SD,

The next issue of Hornady's Manual will have our their Loads in it and many of ours.

I'm currently working on the Hornady 350gr/.458-RN for our application and Hornady wants the results.

Not wanting to high-jack this important thread, after this posting, I'll post the data I am about to describe in the reloading section.

Like michael5446, I too have an RSI Pressure Trace and two of their Chronographs. Why two? I have one just off the muzzle and another at the 200yd line. In this way I can get the actual data, on a particular bullet/loading, without a Standard Deviation, or better said, all my data will have a SD of Zero (0). I built shadow boxes, so the bullet passes through them in the dark, by also using Infrared (IR) lighting, I no longer have lost data, because of any kind of adverse atmospherics.

Now about the accuracy of the RSI equipment.. First the reason I went with them is because of the accuracy and unlike a pressure gun, which has a very narrow window of use, and the data derives from a very specialized barrel, I get data from the production weapon, that kind of data from a pressure gun, has to be inferred.

Here's a little ditty about RSi's equiptment, that is really, quite significant.

Accuracy Of Measurements

Strain gages have been used in industrial instrumentation for several decades and is fully developed, proven technology. Denton Bramwell, (physicist and statistician with a great deal of test instrumentation experience) recently compared the results of various pressure measurement methods for an article in Varmint Hunter magazine. He used a standard measure of how likely a system will give correct answers called "Sigma E" for comparison. (Smaller Sigma E values are best.)

SYSTEM Sigma E (raw data)
Copper Crusher 1827 PSI
Fabrique Scientific Peak Strain Meter 1419 PSI
Commercial piezoelectric data 1366 PSI **
PressureTrace 667 PSI

Bramwell's conclusions are as follows:

"The PressureTrace system allows the careful home experimenter to produce pressure data which rivals or [b]Exceeds
the repeatability of other systems, including systems used to generate Commercially Published Data. The careful attention to circuit board layout and design undoubtedly contributes to the repeatability of the (PressureTrace) system. Careful design keeps unwanted signals out of the system, reducing electrical noise, and statistical error." Technical articles by Bramwell.

**From the Lyman manual, pg 91. If instrumentation error caused by heating is removed from the data, the Sigma E value for the Lyman data is 445. In small samples the difference between 445 and 667 are virtually indistinguishable.
[/b]..end quote..

What all this means, is that between michael5446 and I, we'll soon have pressure data on, all of OUR loads, that will rival the results of the data produced by the Majors.

As I get my Range Lab, more on-line (it's about 90%+- done), I'll be asking for samples of your loads to test for data.

The results of all this is for Safety First Standards, that should help you in "Your" Reloading Responsibilities..t
Safety First..t
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:09 pm

@ Wildcatter... All I can say is... WOW!!! A few of my buddies laugh at me cuz I have a reloading room.
You got a Lab!! How great is that!? Now I want one!! LOL!
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby artalon » Fri Nov 12, 2010 12:51 pm

a reloading room is nothing to laugh at, I go for the out of sight out of mind way of thinking, like with kids or inlaws :lol:
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:39 am

I've been mulling over various posts, looking for data on MagTech 230 Grain FMJs and happened upon this thread. Due to the content, I think it deserves a bump for the sake of safety for us all and the newbies too.
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby Cliff R » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:01 am

I fall into the "newby" catagory as far as the 450 is concerned. I'm only new to this caliber. My reloading experience dates back into the 1970's. I used to work relentlessly with just about every caliber of weapon I owned to develope deadly accurate loads for them, while maintainng acceptable velocity/performance.

I developed quite a few loads for the 45/70 to use in modern weapons such as the Marlin model 1895's, Ruger #1, Browning falling blocks, etc. I have nearly one thousand 300 grain jacketed hollow point bullets in .458. Years ago I re-sized a few of them to shoot in my 50 caliber muzzle loader with .452 sabots. It wasn't easy, but with some effort resizing them was effective.

Anyhow, I'm wanting to develope a 300 grain load for the 450, hoping to get at least 1800fps out of it, 2000 would be even better, while maintaining safe pressure levels, accuracy, and reliable weapon function, etc.

At this point, I'm only in the research phase. I bought 10 boxes of Hornady factory ammo, so plenty of shooting left before there will be a need to do any reloading. For what I'm doing with the 450, using it as a hunting weapon here on the East coast, the 250 grain bullet has more than enough power. I'm thinking an effective 300 grain loading would be a great choice for bears, even the big bruins in Alaska. Is this just "wishful thinking" on my part? A trip to Alaska is on my "bucket list", and I'd love for the 450 Bushmaster to be part of it.....Cliff
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby commander faschisto » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:12 am

Cliff...wildcatter's been there, done that with the load you're talking about. I'm fiddling around with the same idea, using 325gr Barnes Busters. Use Remmy 7 1/2 primers and A1680 powder. There is a post about this very thing in the forums here...use search function and you should be able to find a lot of discussion about the heavier loadings. 1800fps is eminently do-able; 2000fps and above involves messing with the upper's hardware a bit, but can be done. Again, see wildcatter.
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