DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:29 am

The way I see it, if a guy can kill a brown bear with a 175 grain 7mm Rem Mag at 200 yards, the Thumper will be even more effective with a 230 grain at the same distance. And it should be a BANG FLOP.
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby wildcatter » Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:57 pm

Texas Sheepdawg wrote:The way I see it, if a guy can kill a brown bear with a 175 grain 7mm Rem Mag at 200 yards, the Thumper will be even more effective with a 230 grain at the same distance. And it should be a BANG FLOP.


Got that right and this discussion is well placed here, is one can diffidently get to 1800fps with the BB's and I've loaded to 2100fps (Yuppers, 1680 and the LeGendre Side Crimp are the trick here), for Barnes themselves, for a monster pig hunt they went on (viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1634&start=0). Buuttt, only IF, commonsense loading practices are observed and all of the pressure and SAFETY signs are well looked after. If you have more reloading questions, ya might want to start a new thread in the reloading section and save this thread for Safety Concerns.

I might add, that after hunting ALL of the Big Bears, Professionally, these pigs, are far and away tougher to kill, than any Bear and just as, if not more so, dangerous and absolutely require, Safe Reloading Practices or the least of your worries will be a broken gun..

..t
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby Hoot » Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:51 pm

wildcatter wrote:...snip...I've loaded to 2100fps (Yuppers, 1680 and the LeGendre Side Crimp are the trick here)...snip...ya might want to start a new thread in the reloading section and save this thread for Safety Concerns...snip...the least of your worries will be a broken gun..

..t


Lot of new faces around these parts. I'd say this is the perfect thread for that post, eh Gaston? ;)

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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby kottke_35 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:01 pm

Hoot, I don't know where you get some of this stuff but I love it! Lol.

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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby Hoot » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:26 pm

Now remember Kids. Always start diffidently and work your way up. ;)

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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby Cliff R » Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:37 pm

"Cliff...wildcatter's been there, done that with the load you're talking about. I'm fiddling around with the same idea, using 325gr Barnes Busters. Use Remmy 7 1/2 primers and A1680 powder. There is a post about this very thing in the forums here...use search function and you should be able to find a lot of discussion about the heavier loadings. 1800fps is eminently do-able; 2000fps and above involves messing with the upper's hardware a bit, but can be done. Again, see wildcatter."

Many thanks, I'll take a look.

As for this particular topic, loading heavier bullets will increase pressure, all else being equal. They are harder to get moving, more sectional density, and more of the bullet engaged in the rifling (not always true with boatail designs). This can cause pressure "spikes" as we are working up a maximum safe working load. I've ran into this with smaller high velocity calibers, but not so much with the 45/70, which I have a lot of experience with.

I'm hoping that the 450 mimics the 45/70 as far as being able to duplicate or exceed the factory loadings while keeping things well within the safe zone.....Cliff
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby longnkrnch » Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:06 am

As a relative newcomer here, from what I see safety is promoted on a regular basis. Fromm all the Q&A that goes on, so does a lot of LEARNING! I personally have had some wierd thoughts in my head that I abandoned after getting some of the great advice that comes from these forums. Great site, with great people!!!
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby 45-70 shooter » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:14 am

Dare I mention that while there is a paucity of loading data for the 450 BM, there is TONS of it out there for the 460 S&W Magnum.
The 460 is a slightly longer case BUT when you consider the deep seating and hard crimp needed to fit in an X frame S&W, the powder capacity (primer to base of bullet is very close. Generally the S&# loads use more powder because Hodgen tested in a 10.743" pressure barrel...... 9.3" of barrel on the 450 will burn more powder rather than light up the night sky (ask me how I know). :D
So dig out your 460 data,consider the pressure limits of both cartridges and load em' up.

There is nothing especially dangerous about hand loading any smokeless cartridge if you can RTFI and follow them.

Shooting a large bore flinter with real black powder is far more dangerous. Ever seen a guy with a hole in his palm from a ramrod ? OUCH !
Classic failure of not RTFI !
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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby Hoot » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:59 am

The 45 Professional, the progenitor of the 450 Bushmaster, was based upon a cut down 284 Winchester case. It is a much stronger case than Hornady's bastardization in the 450 Bushmaster. Like the 460 S&W, the 284 Winchester can take around 65,000 PSI. The Hornady 450 Bushmaster is not designed for that kind of stress. It certainly can handle more than 38,000 PSI, but I'd wager that if you push it to 65,000 PSI, you will experience excessive case head growth and probably end up short-stroking the semi-auto action at best. At the worst, you could damage some of the workings and possibly yourself. Unlike the 460 S&W, the 450 Bushmaster uses a tapered case. That can contribute to greater bolt thrust for the same amount of pressure as a straight-walled case. Things to consider when interpreting 460 S&W recipes to the 450 Bushmaster.

We have generally, stressed safety for our forum members in the interest of their well being and liability exposure for the forum. That philosophy has not changed. Seasoned 450b reloaders know the limitations of their weapon, but newbies may not and charge right in because they read somewhere that it was OK and that was the answer they were looking for. WC has achieved some pretty spectacular performance from his experimentation, but he is careful to stress that the loads he is representing are either not for a standard factory rifle, the casual reloader, or both.

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Re: DANGEROUS LOADING PRACTICES

Postby wildcatter » Tue Sep 09, 2014 11:50 am

Cliff R wrote:"Cliff...wildcatter's been there, done that with the load you're talking about. I'm fiddling around with the same idea, using 325gr Barnes Busters. Use Remmy 7 1/2 primers and A1680 powder. There is a post about this very thing in the forums here...use search function and you should be able to find a lot of discussion about the heavier loadings. 1800fps is eminently do-able; 2000fps and above involves messing with the upper's hardware a bit, but can be done. Again, see wildcatter."

Many thanks, I'll take a look.

As for this particular topic, loading heavier bullets will increase pressure, all else being equal. They are harder to get moving, more sectional density, and more of the bullet engaged in the rifling (not always true with boatail designs). This can cause pressure "spikes" as we are working up a maximum safe working load. I've ran into this with smaller high velocity calibers, but not so much with the 45/70, which I have a lot of experience with.

I'm hoping that the 450 mimics the 45/70 as far as being able to duplicate or exceed the factory loadings while keeping things well within the safe zone.....Cliff


45-70 shooter wrote:Dare I mention that while there is a paucity of loading data for the 450 BM, there is TONS of it out there for the 460 S&W Magnum.
The 460 is a slightly longer case BUT when you consider the deep seating and hard crimp needed to fit in an X frame S&W, the powder capacity (primer to base of bullet is very close. Generally the S&# loads use more powder because Hodgen tested in a 10.743" pressure barrel...... 9.3" of barrel on the 450 will burn more powder rather than light up the night sky (ask me how I know). :D
So dig out your 460 data,consider the pressure limits of both cartridges and load em' up.

There is nothing especially dangerous about hand loading any smokeless cartridge if you can RTFI and follow them.

Shooting a large bore flinter with real black powder is far more dangerous. Ever seen a guy with a hole in his palm from a ramrod ? OUCH !
Classic failure of not RTFI !


Yes Sir, ..."Hope in one hand"... Well, you know the rest of it.. The concern here with many, is that we can duplicate the 460S&W. I Hope that is not true! The 460SW has in it's quiver many 70,000 psi loads which WILL blow up our 450b. It's instructive to look at such data but, with a capitol "B"..But, only instructive and may not actually translate into our system, at all.

My Fear is that somebody is going to blow themselves up! If they do, make sure your "Will" is up to date and that it includes the words that the accident wasn't really an Accident, but are the results of your experimenting, and outside of all excepted practices, and that this Board or any of it's members are not "Responsible" in any way!

I have shown you guys some pretty incredible practices, but the truth is, I have a lab and do this stuff under highly controlled conditions. As such, these claims should be taken with a grain of salt. You should only use my data as an instructive learning session and not something you can do in the field. In fact anything you read on the Net, whether here or any other site should "ONLY" be taken as examples and the phrase to .."Start low and work up" should have real meaning to you, but, only if you can read the pressure signs.

As for 45-70 Shooter, to use as an example, and let me apologize, right now, for doing so. If memory serves, you have stated you have 50++ years of loading experience, well, me too, and I am continually impressed in how much I don't now, and I am a Ballistics Engineer! I have had many Guns blow up on me and by pure grace I haven't been Hurt too offal bad.

This is a simple Fact.. "We don't know what we don't know".. Please use this Moniker when loading and if you do blow yourself up, remember not to send a lawyer, because you've been continually Warned!!

Again, My extreme Apologizes to 45-70 Shooter and to any others who may feel offended, by my Non-Intellectual Prose (When I grow up I wanna bees a Word Smith, right now I ain'ts (( as if any of us are, right??)) )..

..t
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