HELP..Is Lil-Gun Bad??

[450pwr]

This is my second post and I don't want to be flamed for Dis informaion but it is a concern of mine and maybe informative to others. I don't know if any of this is fact/fiction but seeing how Lilgun is a great powder for the 450 and used alot... I thought I would pass this on to get someone with more knowlege and experiance than myself.

Here is the website, along with some post from it using Lilgun in rifles and revolvers. Thanks again..!!

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=180437.0

We have seen numerous barrels damaged by using Lil Gun. According to customers, some had as few as 30 rounds using Lil Gun through them, some had several hundred. Before we figured out what was happening one customer had sent his gun in for a new barrel. Then 600 rounds later it came back for another new barrel.

A couple years ago we did a test with a M83, .357 Mag. using Hornady 180 gr. bullets. We loaded 50 rds. of three different loads. One was a heavy H-110 load and the other two both used Lil Gun in different quantities.

We fired the H-110 loads first, then cut off the threaded end of the barrel. Rethreaded the barrel and shot one of the Lil Gun loads then rethreaded the barrel and shot the last Lil Gun load.

We found even the light load of Lil Gun caused the gun to get extremely hot. The heavy Lil Gun load had the gun so hot the only place we could touch the gun was on the grips and they were very hot.

Under magnification the surface appeared to have heated to a point of flowing using the Lil Gun loads and the heavy load was worse than the light load. This is probably due to Lil Gun having about 10% more nitro glycerin in it than H-110.


BigMuddy
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Re: The Truth About Lil' Gun...
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2009, 08:43:07 PM »
Quote from: Bob Baker on August 20, 2009, 03:45:06 PM
We have seen numerous barrels damaged by using Lil Gun. According to customers, some had as few as 30 rounds using Lil Gun through them, some had several hundred. Before we figured out what was happening one customer had sent his gun in for a new barrel. Then 600 rounds later it came back for another new barrel.

I am one of those customers Bob mentions. I can assure anyone without a doubt now that Lil Gun powder is the culprit, and the reason I need a 3rd barrel on one of my 83's. It took 3 different guns and 4 barrels to narrow it down to the powder, but powder it is.

Interestingly enough on another forum when this came up, I was told I was wrong about it because the other person had never seen anyone "Like John Taffin" mention it. Maybe Bob is someone like John Taffin.

I can't speak for it in any other caliber than 454 and no other gun but FA Model 83 because that is all I used it in. (I just like to ruin expensive guns )

Correct me if I am wrong but "burn rate" really does not have anything to do with the temperature that the powder burns, does it?
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JayCee
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Re: The Truth About Lil' Gun...
« Reply #29 on: September 01, 2009, 08:06:20 PM »
Mr. Baker's research seems to indicate that the erosive effects are most pronounced after firing a large number of rounds one right after another. He indicated that after fifty rounds, the gun was too hot to hold. If the exterior of the gun was that hot, the interior of the barrel must have been incredibly hot, to the point that the heat sink effect of the heavy barrel was virtually nonexistent. Metal subjected to additional heat at those temperatures will likely start to see some physical changes, and that appears to be borne out by Mr. Baker's observations. The culprit in Lil' Gun seems to be that it burns hotter than other comparable powders, so it heats up the barrel that much more. I'm thinking that using Lil' Gun in moderation and allowing ample time for barrel cool-down will potentially alleviate the most serious erosive effects, but I'm not an expert...

[Texas Sheepdawg]

I've seen a post similar to this before. I am going to let the Expert address this thread.
Wildcatter, you have the floor.

[BD1]

No powder is "good", or "bad". Although some are more appropriate than others for a given application. Some of the posts on the graybeard forum are a little misleading, it's not the burn rate of Lil Gun that's in question. It's the heat of combustion. I've burned about 4 pounds of Lil Gun in my .450 B and I can not see any significant sign of throat erosion. Part of this is due to the fact that the .450B is chromed and has very little actual "throat", and part is due to the fact that i try never to shoot a barrel to the point where it would burn me if I touched it. In the end I quit using Lil Gun due to it's pronounced rapid barrel heating. I generally go to the range for load work with 50 to 60 rounds of ammo to test in the .450 and I don't particularly need to spend three hours getting the shooting done due to time spent waiting for the barrel to cool between strings. I started playing with the .450B while on a job out of state where I had brought only a limited loading set up and a small selection of powder. Lil Gun was the "Go to" powder for the .450B, and it was available locally in NY, so I did a fair amount of load work up with it. Once I returned home and had the chance to try a couple of surplus powders from my stash, I pretty quickly settled on WC297, and quit using Lil Gun. Why? Because the 297 is cheaper, more consistent, more accurate at longer ranges, and because it burns much cooler. Today, after a few years playing with this rifle, my second choice would be H1110. Most of my rifle shooting is at 200 and 300 yards. At those ranges the extreme spread in velocity with Lil Gun is also a factor. Combined with the increased barrel heat, for me it's a no brainer.

Five shots with Lil Gun heat my barrel to about the same temp as 15 shots loaded with 297, everything else being equal. I like that.
BD

[Texas Sheepdawg]

I believe this issue was address in this thread. viewtopic.php?t=9726
Wildcatter posted his opinion on several powders including Lil Gun. BTW, Wildcatter, in case you haven't heard yet, is none other than The father and creator of the 450 Bushmaster..... Tim LeGendre. He is the utmost authority on the 450 Bushmaster.

He is our King Julien.... Okay all you Lemurs, bow down before him and offer hotdogs and Smores! LOL!!

Sorry, been watching too much Madagascar...LOL!
I'll go away now.

[wildcatter]

I believe this issue was address in this thread. viewtopic.php?t=9726
Wildcatter posted his opinion on several powders including Lil Gun. BTW, Wildcatter, in case you haven't heard yet, is none other than The father and creator of the 450 Bushmaster..... Tim LeGendre. He is the utmost authority on the 450 Bushmaster.

He is our King Julien.... Okay all you Lemurs, bow down before him and offer hotdogs and Smores! LOL!!

Sorry, been watching too much Madagascar...LOL!
I'll go away now.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, Tex, but I gotta tell ya BD here pretty much has the pulse on the question in hand and my hats off to you BD.

As to these post, there may be some problems with l-gun and pistol throats, but as BD has told us,.."we ain't really got a throat", at least not in a pistol sense. I've never had a problem with any powder for our gun, which is a hall-mark of straight cases. Our straight case is very forgiving, and I don't think anyone here has had a problem with l-gun, at least I've never read of one.

If you want to squeeze ever ounce of energy out of our gun, then it seems like l-gun is your choice and you should not be afraid of it, in our usages, just don't get crazy with the safety violations.

As BD has so amply point out the uses of a slower powder, I too prefer them. If you consider the fact that we have "Over-Kill", in this cartridges, I can suffer a very small amount of degradation in power, for better accuracy and general kindness to our action, by using slower burning powders. But if you insist on the lighter bullets (say 230gr and lighter), it will be difficult to beat l-gun, 2400, 4100, and blue dot, of which I burn allot of them all. For the medium weight bullets (say 230-300 I like 297 allot). For the Heavies (say 275 and up, I like 1680).

I'd like to address 450pwr and his worry about being "Flamed".. This is NOT the site to worry about such. This site is all about respect and clean, clear, language. Your worries are best aired out here and I don't think you will ever run into a flame-thrower. That time however, may come, but I suspect, the first time someone curses, uses inappropriate language or suggestions or any manor of disrespect, so often found on the other channels, well, I don't think the moderators will need to get involved much, because the guys here, will police the action.

Your concerns about l-gun are well taken, I hope we have and will yet, set some of your worries to bed and these guys will chime in and you watch, they will be respectful. If you are sitting down to burn 200+ rounds, at the range, well, I don't think l-gun will be the problem. As a matter of fact, do you guys know what you call the guy who wants to sit down and shoot our cartridge, all day long, at the range??? For myself, I'd call him "Sir"!!

..t

[Texas Sheepdawg]

A very sore shouldered, SIR with a capital S!

[Siringo]

I've got 10 pounds of Lil'gun thru mine. I see no wear what so ever. The real issue here is not necessarily the powder as its application in a specific firearm. The 458S and 50B guys use LG too!

[commander faschisto]

450pwr...the guys on this site like to see flame coming out of the barrel of their 450b, not out of their computer keyboards...you should feel free to ask about anything you'd like to know.

[BayouBob]

Nah, the reason there is no flaming from this bunch is that it takes a real wit to be good at flaming and most of us are only about halfway there!

[Texas Sheepdawg]

"An armed society is a Polite society."