newbe ?

General Reloading Discussion.

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Re: newbe ?

Postby Hoot » Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:56 pm

longrangedog1000yd wrote:...snip... what kind of brass life can i expect?...snip...

The biggest issue is the brass shrinking in length until it is out of spec. Some folks like myself will not shoot out of spec brass, though it is still shootable. That's about all I had go wrong with my brass that I didn't self-inflict. I did do a "melt-off" of the barrel extension to reduce it scratching them up. (Google it) Can't say I've had trouble with primer pockets loosening or split cases ever and I've loaded some stiff ones on occasion. Adding some weight to the bolt carrier does make it a little easier on the rims.

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Re: newbe ?

Postby longrangedog1000yd » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:13 pm

what weight are you adding to carrier? what buffer would u recommend? iv built quite a few ar's but all but one was 556, the other is my current hoggen rifle in 6.8,and never needed to slow them down, but i guess the thumper will be different .
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Re: newbe ?

Postby Hoot » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:40 pm

longrangedog1000yd wrote:what weight are you adding to carrier? what buffer would u recommend? iv built quite a few ar's but all but one was 556, the other is my current hoggen rifle in 6.8,and never needed to slow them down, but i guess the thumper will be different .


This sticky article explains it all. If you don't enjoy DIY projects, Tubbs sells a pre-fabricated unit though I don't like the impact it has upon ease of takedown. A heavier buffer being the another alternative has IMHO the drawback of slamming the softer aluminum buffer body into the back of the steel bolt carrier with greater force than normal and it will over time peen the softer aluminum. Keeping the weight in the carrier allows the softer buffer to have an easier life. Ditto for heavier springs with their greater forward thrust power.

I stress this is my own opinion and some do not share it. An alternative that I do not believe has been explored to any degree is a variable gas block. I have one, but have not played with it on this rifle due to experience with other calibers where it seemed that when I got it tuned optimally to one load power, when I changed to lighter loads, it had to be reset or suffered from unreliable cycling. Adjusting it too light and it's intended benefit was lost when switching to heavy loads. If you shoot the same load or close to it all the time, then a variable gas block makes perfect sense. Otherwise, keeping the weight in the bolt carrier has the benefit of gentler (slightly slower) forward acceleration when it is stripping the next round, dragging it across the barrel extension lugs and slamming it into battery. I have not experienced any issues from the slightly slower cycling as I do not shoot FA or even rapid firing where cycle time was a mitigating factor. Read the intro to the article. The how-to part is not much of a challenge if you're comfortable with fiddling with your setup and have a modestly equipped "man cave". If you're not comfortable with the casting your own weight part, PM me and I can help you out there. The rest of the article deals with minor additional details and testimonies from those who added it to their rigs. Once you're familiar with the entire recoil cycle of shooting the 450b, you can definitely feel the impact the mod has upon the lesser components of the total recoil experience. Simply stated, it feels gentler without feeling crippled. After approximately 1500) 450b rounds through my rig, I have not seen any untoward wear patterns on the BCA, Receiver, Barrel extension, or anything else for that matter.

Lastly, the 450b is designed to work just fine with a standard rifle buffer, standard spring and bolt carrier. It will work just fine in that capacity though it may be a little harder on the brass. The CCWS mod is an enhancement, not a necessity. The fact that it can be implemented with simple supplies, tools and a healthy junk box are it's main selling point.

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Re: newbe ?

Postby wildcatter » Wed Jul 18, 2012 10:51 pm

longrangedog1000yd wrote:thanks guys! and you will get plenty of load reports, as i spend at least one full day at the range each weak its been rough the last few weak with the temps over 100 but when there is loads to be found its got to be done! what kind of brass life can i expect? went out hog scouting today found a few small pounds that wasnt dried up and the sign was there, got to get this 450 out and running sooner than later , i want to see the differance between it and my 6.8 on one(;


Well, if you don't get wild, with the pressures and you anneal fairly often, 20-30 hits are possible. If ya just shoot'em like you got'em, then maybe 10+- reloads. I've done more than 30 and as little as one reloads.

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Re: newbe ?

Postby YoteAddict » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:46 pm

You asked if anybody loads 'em on a Dillon...

I do.

Here is a link to my post that explains an RL-550B setup to use

http://www.450bushmaster.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=78
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Re: newbe ?

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:37 am

wildcatter wrote:
longrangedog1000yd wrote:thanks guys! and you will get plenty of load reports, as i spend at least one full day at the range each weak its been rough the last few weak with the temps over 100 but when there is loads to be found its got to be done! what kind of brass life can i expect? went out hog scouting today found a few small pounds that wasnt dried up and the sign was there, got to get this 450 out and running sooner than later , i want to see the differance between it and my 6.8 on one(;


Well, if you don't get wild, with the pressures and you anneal fairly often, 20-30 hits are possible. If ya just shoot'em like you got'em, then maybe 10+- reloads. I've done more than 30 and as little as one reloads.

..t


So I've never annealed my brass. Being poor, what is the most economic and easy way to anneal my brass?
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Re: newbe ?

Postby Hoot » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:00 am

Texas Sheepdawg wrote:So I've never annealed my brass. Being poor, what is the most economic and easy way to anneal my brass?


One of these 3/8" socket / drill adatpers:
Image
A drill to spin it with and a socket that the cases fit inside of to spin them in.
Then a simple propane torch with a medium to fine pencil point. No need for MAPP gas, a swirl tip or "sweating big pipes" tip. You want to be able to concentrate the heat in a small area while slowly rotating the case. The heat will spread easily due to brass' good thermal conductivity. Even one of those small butane ones you can pick up from HF, though butane is an expensive fuel.

It might be a good idea to get some TempLac (google it) until you get a feel for doing it by sight. I've seen at least one well produced, but totally wrong How-To video on YouTube, so be careful of free advice. The guy was ruining his cases. It drew a lot of critical comments from folks in the know, who saw it. I use a lock stud from a Lee Case Trim kit chucked in my drill, but I have to loosen it after each round is done to drop it into the water quench (which isn't necessary). With a socket that surrounds the lower half of the case, you just tip it upward a little to keep the case in it while spinning and then tip it down toward the catcher. If you apply the heat accurately and prudently, you can let them air cool. The residual heat that migrates down the case as it cools is no where close to high enough to change the brass' properties in the lower half. I know one fellow who twirls them in his fingers and drops them to cool and it doesn't burn his fingers. A dot of TempLac, applied inside the mouth is probably the most accurate approach, but you have to clean it out of the cases when done. I tried my remote reading IR thermometer, but the refresh rate was too slow on it and it was too inconsistent to rely upon.

Unless you plane on doing them by the hundreds, there's no need to ramp up the technology any more than primer pocket cleaning or mouth chamfering.

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Re: newbe ?

Postby commander faschisto » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:12 am

Cool, thanks Hoot! I take it that one looks for the brownish color change in the brass as a guide for the proper temp being achieved (in the absence of TempLac)? Or...what, exactly?
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Re: newbe ?

Postby Hoot » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:33 pm

commander faschisto wrote:Cool, thanks Hoot! I take it that one looks for the brownish color change in the brass as a guide for the proper temp being achieved (in the absence of TempLac)? Or...what, exactly?


Though I'm rarely at a loss for words, I hesitate to try and describe the "look". They go from normal brassy to dull brassy, to straw brown, to darker brown and shortly thereafter, blue. IMHO don't let them get to blue before removing the heat. You will wind up overshooting. The key is to not heat them directly on the mouth. It's thinner there and there is no brass on one side to wick away the heat since it's the end of the case and consequently the mouth will overheat before the temp line runs far enough down the case. The key is to heat at the mid point from how far you want it down the case to the mouth and let the heat migrate in both directions toward your stop line and the mouth. As the color nears the mouth, stop and let the heat migration coast to a halt. So, if you wanted to anneal from the mouth to 1/2 inch below it, you would put the pencil sharp flame at the 1/4 to 1/3 inch point, while rotating the case around 1 revolution per second. Let it continue to spin while the heat line coasts to a halt and then drop it onto a cooling surface, or if you just absolutely have to, into a quenching bath. The small, precise, controllable flame is the key to not overshooting. If you use a dot of TempLac at the mouth, still heat about halfway between it and the furthest down point you want to go. We rarely seat bullets beyond a half inch into the case, that's why I used that example.

A good rule of thumb. Unless you're blessed with "Kung Fu Grip", try holding an empty case at the mouth, between your thumb and index finger. Try to squeeze it shut. You should not be able to permanently distort it. If after annealing one, you can do so, that would be an example of having gone too far with the heat and you are holding a ruined case. If I had a camcorder, with good color rendering, a video would be worth a thousand words. This is the process I use and it does change the hardness of necks. When I was necking up 25 WSSM to 30 WSSM, I would use this technique, throw in 13gr of Unique with a grits filler and a Styrofoam cup wall plug. They then fireformed to the new neck dimension. Out of the 200 I did, I lost one case and believe me, it could just as much been a kinked case from Winchester as my process' fault. Their QC on 25 WSSM brass ranged from good to 20% kinked right out of the bag.

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Re: newbe ?

Postby Texas Sheepdawg » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Thanx Hoot. That will get me started. I just need to find a pencil tip torch end. Everything else, I've got.
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