9MM World Record Group

[wildcatter]

I'm needing some research and who better than you?

What is the world record group for a 9mm at ranges of 100yds-200yds? Anything will shoot one-hole groups at 25yds, but when you stretch the ranges out...

I just shot two, sub 1 MOA @ 200yds groups of 7rds each and both were in the one MOA area. I was using a 130gr bullet, that I made.

As soon as I can, I'll post the pics, but in the mean time, can someone with better time research this??

..t

[Texas Sheepdawg]

I have a Ruger PC 9 9mm Para. Rifle. Never even thought about long range with it. It's sighted in at 25 yards with a holographic site.

[wildcatter]

You might have to shrink the image down to better see the results.

Both groups had 7rds fired in them. The first group is the lower one and the two cold bore shots were grossly out of group and were eliminated, thus keeping the five. The upper group had only one cold bore shot that had to be eliminated, it too was grossly out of the group. In all cases, the exact cold bore rounds were the only rounds eliminated, from the group. The second group (upper) only needed one cold-bore shot, as the barrel was still a little warm. With this data, it would be easy to adjust the sights for the cold-bore shots, to keep them in the group, with the rest of the rounds.

I'm thinking we could have had ten or more rounds in the groups and have still maintained the integrity of the groups.

Conclusions: Two consecutive groups of more than five rounds, is more than mere coincidence, as to the health, quality, and reliability of results, concerning this system. In other words, Confirmed and Repeatable. As soon as we make some more bullets (we're looking at a 200rd lot in the next run), we'll further confirm these results and try to establish a much better repeatable pattern.

Both Groups averaged together are 1.013" MOA!!

Please don't ask about platform or ammo specs, you'll soon get them, when I can finally release the data. Suffice it to say, "this ain't nobody's 9mm"..

..t

[wildcatter]

Com-on Dawg, I know that them water gauges give you time to play on the net, find me some data.

I been searching and I must be looking in the wrong areas.

Whoever comes up with the data, for this request, well, "Day-Bees-Dah-Man"!!

Might have better luck finding accuracy results for the 357 Herrett, even though it's not a true 9mm, it's still quite close and was used in Silhouette Matches allot, in the 70-80"s???

..t

[Texas Sheepdawg]

I'll see what I can do. Would 9mm at 100 yards Out of my PC 9 help? I might could pull off a 200 yard test. Just have to change to a scope.

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Here some info.... Still digging though.
SNIP
Thanks for the link, DMK. I've copied over some tests with 9mm. from a Ruger P85 pistol and a Marlin Camp 9 carbine, and calculated the energies using the Remington online calculator linked above:

CCI Blazer 115 gr FMJ:
P85 - 1165 fps (=347 fpe); Carbine - 1274 fps (=414 fpe); velocity increase 9.4%; energy increase 19.3%.

Rem UMC yellow box 115 gr FMJ:
P85 - 1089 fps (=303 fpe); Carbine - 1229 fps (=386 fpe); velocity increase 13%; energy increase 27.4%.

Handload 6.0 gr HS-6 115 gr cast lead rn:
P85 - 1031 fps (=271 fpe); Carbine - 1264 fps (=408 fpe); velocity increase 23%; energy increase 50.5%.

Cor Bon +p 115 gr:
P85 - 1311 fps (=439 fpe); Carbine - 1482 fps (=561 fpe); velocity increase 13%; energy increase 27.8%.

Georgia Arms +p 124 gr:
P85 - 1220 fps (=410 fpe); Carbine 1377 fps (=522 fpe); velocity increase 13%; energy increase 27.3%.

Looks like, as a rule of thumb, for the examples cited on that Web site, the energy increases just over 2% for every 1% of velocity increase. I notice, too, that the two +P rounds referenced are pushed well into .357 Magnum handgun territory (at least for muzzle velocity and energy) by the extra length of the carbine barrel - not too shabby...

[Texas Sheepdawg]

SNIP

ok a little later than i planned but here's what the 9mm Sub 2000 ballistics chart says.

115gr FMJ: 1350 fps, 430 ft/lbs at the muzzle
sights zeroed for 100yds give about 2.5 inches high at 60 yards. at 200 yards the drop is about 27 inches. about 300 ft/lbs at 100 yards, 210 ft/lbs at 200 yards.

115gr JHP +P: 1520 fps, 590 ft/lbs at the muzzle
zeroed for 100yds give about 2 inches high at 60 yards
200 yard drop is about 23 inches. about 350 ft/lbs at 100 yards and 220 ft/lbs at 200 yards.

these are Kel-Tec's figures, not mine, so no hootin' and hollerin' at me that i'm wrong.

[Texas Sheepdawg]

SNIP

I've done extensive research into the ballistics of the 9mm, and found the 124gr. +P Gold Dot and Golden Saber to be the rounds of choice, with the 147gr. rounds coming in second. The Firearms Tactical Institute and many other ballistics experts agree with this. Lighter rounds, such as the 115gr. Corbon, tend to underpenetrate. While they expand well, they do not meet the minimum penetration standards in ballistic gelatin (off by about 2", IIRC). When you consider that these minimum requirements are set to ensure that the round will penetrate to vital cardiovascular structures, I would be extremely hesitant to select a round that didn't have 12"-18" penetration in clothed gelatin. IMO, expansion is just a luxury...penetration is key.

One round that I have seen perform well in other people's tests is the Winchester Ranger 127gr. +P+. Since it's LEO only, I haven't been able to obtain any to do my own tests with it, so I can't say anything first-hand.

Honestly, there is no reason to feel uncomfortable with a 9mm. If you do your job, it will do its job just as well as another caliber. The only time where the selection of this round can hurt you is if you are shooting through barriers. Gold Dots perform better here, since Golden Sabers have a tendancy to shed their jackets very easily (the new LEO only Bonded line is said to correct this).

[Texas Sheepdawg]

SNIP

Huh? You think .223 is underpowered so you want a 9mm instead? Muzzle energy of a 9mm handgun is somewhere around 350 ft-lbs. Add 10% for a 9mm carbine. Muzzle energy of a .223 rifle is around 1300 ft-lbs.

.223 is far, far more powerful than 9mm.

In terms of recoil, a .223 AR15 has hardly any at all. You can put the buttstock on your forehead and pull the trigger.

In terms of ballistics, the 9mm will be hopeless beyond 100 yards. At 100 yards, the 9mm has 5.6" of bullet drop. At 150 yards, it is 25".

If you sight in your .223 at 100 yards, you will have 1.5" of drop at 150 yards. 4.8" of drop at 200 yards. 19.3" at 300 yards.

Stick with a .223. It is a far better round than a 9mm.

[Texas Sheepdawg]

Check your email WC.